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Old 08-29-2012, 05:15 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by h2o_snow View Post
+1 Hey, hey that about sums this thread up.

Did vs did not. Who besides the lycra clad posers even cares now?
.
cool story bro.
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:40 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by BobbySands View Post
I stood in the park across from the Philadelphia Art Museum during the CoreStates PRO championship and every time Lance came by I cheered him with the same intensity I cheered Lemond when he was racing the Tour. When we heard Lance attacked on the Wall we were all giddy.
I feel like dolt.

Over the years he's proved himself no hero and I still think he's done his share to take cycling in the wrong direction-- that is, he's created a bunch of Tour watchers who every excuse and rationalisation why an elite rider can't attempt more than one grand tour or seriously race for the Monuments. And, quite honestly, I think he brought doping and the masking of it to new heights.

Why do you feel like a dolt? You were cheering a great athletic event, and a great cyclist showing his stuff. Is there proof he was doping at the Corestates? That would have led to you feeling personally let down?

You also write: Over the years he's proved himself no hero : maybe not to you, but to many he is. I am no fanboy, believe me, but there are lots of people who think highly of him, for the hope they gave him. Good for them.

And you write: And, quite honestly, I think he brought doping and the masking of it to new heights

No, you are imagining he did this, you, like everyone else, do not know. If anybody did high quality masking, it was some chemist that aided a doctor. I don't think any cyclist has the knowledge of chemistry to pull that off.


We get it, you hate Lance for letting you down and destroying cycling as you think it should be. For arguments sake, if Lance never raced, the same situations would be going on with other top level cyclists. This is the drama of sport when there is fame and money at stake.
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:08 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by cogitate View Post

And you write: And, quite honestly, I think he brought doping and the masking of it to new heights

1. No, you are imagining he did this, you, like everyone else, do not know. If anybody did high quality masking, it was some chemist that aided a doctor. I don't think any cyclist has the knowledge of chemistry to pull that off.


2. We get it, you hate Lance for letting you down and destroying cycling as you think it should be.

3.For arguments sake, if Lance never raced, the same situations would be going on with other top level cyclists. This is the drama of sport when there is fame and money at stake.
1. incorrect. I'm drawing conclusions from a body of evidence. A lot of the evidence is circumstancial-- doesn't mean it isn't evidence. You're correct, there were people behind the chemistry, and Lance's 465,000 dollar payment made to Dr. Ferrari in 2006 (yeah, that late) along continued meetings with him until 2010 (yeah, just two years ago) are just two examples how Lance helped propel that science. Lance was ahead of the curve. How many reasonable people believe that Lance was actually clean? You seriously can't assert that, can you?

2. Incorrect. I dislike Lance for being rude and for being arrogant. For not only doping but for pounding his chest and threatening and bullying and insisting that he never, ever doped and thay he would never consider it. He didn't fail to comment. He didn't try to obfuscate. He went like a volcano at the mere suggestion. That sort of duplicity removes any chance of 'hero' status.

I think he did a good job at turning the sport into a Tour only season with a bunch of warm ups. And I would like to hear you put forth a reasonable argument otherwise. Certainly this cannot be a healthy thing for real cycling fans?

3. Please don't drag this conversion into the logic sewer. Conjecture based on a hypothetical is not allowed.
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:19 AM   #394
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I have always believed that everyone has a kind of secrete destiny. By that I mean a purpose that we will fulfill by the very act of being ourselves and we have no control of this destiny. I also believe that this "destiny" is plural and not culminating in a single event, but as a result of all the lives we touch in our lifetimes.

I dislike the phrase "determining our destiny" because true destiny cannot be directed nor controlled.
Far out.
It's kinda like a 'hope' almost. Like you hope there are predetermined destinies (sp? Not sure of the spelling because destiny is so rarely plural) which will explain events and, hopefully, for the better? I suppose that is reassuring in a way.

I see it this way:
We live in a gently indifferent universe which has no plans and doesn't exert any force, good nor bad, on our lives. Not very reassuring but a lot easier to explain given my life experience.
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Old 08-30-2012, 04:47 AM   #395
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[QUOTE=mick;19432438]I have always felt that there should be an open class for all athletes. Do all the juice you want. Max yourself out and dope up till it runs out the gills. Along with drug free events, there should be a "do all the drugs you want" events.[/QUOTE How would you have "drug free events"?
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:45 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by h2o_snow View Post
Did vs did not. Who besides the lycra clad posers even cares now?
Actually, this is a huge thing. I live in Baltimore - I don't live in a bad neighborhood, but there's one about a block away. This old drunk guy with a little dog comes staggering down the walk and has a 10 minute conversation with me about what a load of BS it is that they're trying to get Lance again.

And this little old 90 year old lady at the church also had a convo with me about what an inspirational figure he is and how she thought it was terrible that 'That man' was out trying to get him.

A lot of people care about this, and the majority of them that I have met think that Lance is getting screwed.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:31 AM   #397
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Link

Thoughts on doping...

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Old 08-30-2012, 08:46 AM   #398
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Good link.

And
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Add to that a Tour regulation at that time restricting the riders to two liters of water each.


How do you race like that on 2 liters of water?
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:01 AM   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick View Post
I have always felt that there should be an open class for all athletes. Do all the juice you want. Max yourself out and dope up till it runs out the gills. Along with drug free events, there should be a "do all the drugs you want" events.
How would you have "drug free events"?
They have drug free body building contests. I don't see why other sports can't do the same.
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:38 AM   #400
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1. incorrect. I'm drawing conclusions from a body of evidence. A lot of the evidence is circumstancial-- doesn't mean it isn't evidence. You're correct, there were people behind the chemistry, and Lance's 465,000 dollar payment made to Dr. Ferrari in 2006 (yeah, that late) along continued meetings with him until 2010 (yeah, just two years ago) are just two examples how Lance helped propel that science. Lance was ahead of the curve. How many reasonable people believe that Lance was actually clean? You seriously can't assert that, can you?

2. Incorrect. I dislike Lance for being rude and for being arrogant. For not only doping but for pounding his chest and threatening and bullying and insisting that he never, ever doped and thay he would never consider it. He didn't fail to comment. He didn't try to obfuscate. He went like a volcano at the mere suggestion. That sort of duplicity removes any chance of 'hero' status.

I think he did a good job at turning the sport into a Tour only season with a bunch of warm ups. And I would like to hear you put forth a reasonable argument otherwise. Certainly this cannot be a healthy thing for real cycling fans?

3. Please don't drag this conversion into the logic sewer. Conjecture based on a hypothetical is not allowed.

I don't think he raced clean, but he did not test positive. For the letter of the law at the time, since he passed the tests, well, he may have beat the system, so don't go after him now. What's the point? In the scope of starving children or cancer victims, well, who cares what he did? Wait, he may have done something in that realm, lessee, give a yellow bracelet to a child dying of cancer who had a smile on his face when he died. Lance may have doped, but again, so what? I loved watching Merckx, Fignon, etc, and I am sure I would have enjoyed watching Simpson, too.

No Lance is not mother therese, but this is just not about sports. He is from Texas, of course he comes off strong.

You addressed each of my issues, well, I understand where you are coming from, but you did not touch my question about why you felt like a dolt?
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Old 08-30-2012, 12:21 PM   #401
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Paid Witnesses?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...diction_236877



What say ye to that, inquistor Sands?
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Old 08-30-2012, 12:42 PM   #402
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http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...diction_236877



What say ye to that, inquistor Sands?
Interesting. I like Phil. Do you think he dopes?
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Old 08-30-2012, 05:20 PM   #403
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I think Phil actually makes few salient points. He claims there is another, hidden reason behind these charges. But really it is mere speculation on his part and he's unable to name it. This is the exact sort of thing many of contributors to this thread have railed against. There's something else behind all this. I don't have any details and I can't say what it is, but trust me.

Also, he drops a bollock when he claims that Merckx and Hinault are both laughing at these charges. Because that's not true. Merckx is sure that Lance is subject to an 'unjust process' which he cannot win. Hinault, on the other hand, clearly stated, "I couldn't give a damn.' Lets keep in mind that Hinault was never shadowed by a hint of doping and Merckx was expelled from the Giro d'Italia after he tested positive for a stimulant. But the way that was handled was shoddy and he was never able to prove is innocence (nor have it disproved) by means of a third party. And the results were released to the media before Merckx himself was told. He was slain by public opinion before he could respond. You can see why he might feel for Lance. He was also caught using nasal spray (norephedine) which was then a banned substance and finally caught using a real, honest stimulant in 1977.

Phil claims that an unnamed cyclist was offered money from some unnamed government agency to testify against Lance. No, I have that incorrect. He, unable to be named, was offered money from a government agency, also unable to be named, to say that Lance was dirty.

Some want to say that Lance is innocent and all this circumstantial evidence, dirty samples uncovered after the fact, 465,000 USD payments to the dirtiest doctor in all of cycling, and eyewitness testimony is meaningless because A) Lance never doped and all this is hog anus or B) that Lance doped but he passed the tests required at the time of the doping and is, therefore, above charges. Well, then, you can't wave your hand and dismiss this investigation based on the tales of an anonymous rider and an anonymous government agency, can you?

(Funny that we don't find the same argument as pleasing when it comes to other crimes. You'd never say of a criminal "he's innocent because there were no DNA tests back then, and when compared with the testing of the day, there is no proof.")

He also questions the USADA's interest in the matter because these events took place in a foreign land. Geography doesn't play into it, does it?

Phil is certainly a fan of Lance and has always been. And he's delivered his polemic clearly. I think it is very hollow, prima facie. But I really, really like Phil Ligget.

I do think Lance has been witch hunted here. But I think he brought this on himself. The arrogance, the hubris, and the chest pounding has come back to haunt him. (oh, and the doping)

I said it in post 202 and I'll say it again, I think his legacy, such that it is, should be left for the real cycling fans and riders to decide. The general public, all enamoured with his Livestrong.org and all will have theirs.

I'll also remind you of this, it has been said that it was the American professional cycling community which pushed, pressured and insisted that Lance continue to be investigated having either heard from what they considered reliable sources or witnessed themselves what Lance was up to. And Phil might just as well find that is the reason for the continued investigation as some other Byzantine reason.

If I'm not mistaken (and please do correct me) doesn't the USADA's ruling have to be reviewed by the WADA with all evidence disclosed at that time? I think the UCI could also ask for this full disclosure. I think that might be quite a show or a trainwreck, either one.

By the way, Lance isn't worthy to clean Merckx's chain or polish Hinault's kangaroo cycling shoes.

Merckx: 5 Tours de France, 5 Giros d'Italia, and a Vuelta de Espana victory and all the Monuments. Basically he won every major road race during his time at least once. 525 professional wins. Essentially Merckx won a race a week for the whole of his professional racing career.

Hinault: 5 Tours de France, 3 Giros d'Italia, 2 Vueltas. All the Monuments and countless other victories.

Lance: 7 Tours. Raced the Giro once, half-heartedly at the end of his career. Won a world championship and one La Fleche Wallone.

There is no comparison. And while Merckx was easy to like, even adore, Hinault was not always that way, especially in the peleton where threats were made and contol was taken. But he was a fantastic racer and great for cycling.

Lance, not so much in my book, anyhow.
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"You start a hunger strike to protest for what you believe in. You don't start already determined to die or am I missing somethin' here?"
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:03 AM   #404
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So tell us what you really think...



I didn't watch the PL interview, but if some of what the FL interview with Klimmage suggests, the UCI is in on it up to its eyeballs and USAC is in on it just about as far.

AFA Klimmage: he's got a hard-on for LA. If he was really as anti-doping as he says, there'd be a lot more coming out of his mouth... ...about a lot more riders!

For now, we'll have to see how the Bruyneel et al sagas play out. Then we'll have to see what happens at the WADA/UCI/CAS on the LA thing

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Old 08-31-2012, 05:37 AM   #405
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I said it in post 202 and I'll say it again...
...and again.
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