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Old 02-25-2014, 03:14 PM   #31
FR700
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Originally Posted by DRONE View Post
In this pic here, I'd gladly ride WUMPA from the background to the foreground, but I don't have the chops to ride from the foreground to the background no matter what line I picked. Maybe I could walk it through there, but it would be a trick. Part of that is because of the terrain, part because of the rig's limitations, and part because I'm old and fat and can't do half the stuff I was able to do 15 years ago.





Let air out of the drive tire and avoid the scree to the left of pic'. Then, slow and steady wins the race.

Might even be a semi- business opportunity for Barry or Vernon, taking those who have had a rig for a while and showing them the next stage. Ride around the mountain trails and play, follow the leader.


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Old 02-25-2014, 03:29 PM   #32
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He is standing there to get an idea of the size of the rocks. The ledge behind him comes to his knees. I would agree stay out of the loose stuff it's on the edge of a cliff. Probably 150'
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:44 PM   #33
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He is standing there to get an idea of the size of the rocks. The ledge behind him comes to his knees. I would agree stay out of the loose stuff it's on the edge of a cliff. Probably 150'


Once again, people new to this should use their rig to their advantage. For us blokes down under ( chair on the left ), we could put the bike against the abutment, thereby straddling the 3' rock ledge without the chair getting, tippy, due to being on the high side..

I've already sussed out that having a LL with fixed brake calipers allows you to drag the front brakes and get the rig to raise itself to 'hop' over larger rocks/curb at Starbucks. It runs 2" of static sag at the front that I can use to my advantage. Cheaper than air suspension


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Old 02-25-2014, 04:08 PM   #34
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Have the car on the otherside would make it feel better. Hadn't thought about the anti dive aspect of brake mount on the swingarm. The Tiger will leap over somethings with just a blip of the throttle. Love that HP
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Old 02-25-2014, 04:17 PM   #35
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Another thing to consider in your build. Just as the front will rise, the chair's swingarm will compress due to being in a trailing orientation with an independent brake, plus you can use it to skid steer in tight situations. Makes for wickedly small U-turns. Handy in fast turns towards the chair, as it will 'suck' the tub closer to the ground which negates some of the negatives of long travel on the bike.



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Old 02-25-2014, 06:24 PM   #36
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So if one was to build a rig for increased car travel then I would ass/u/me that it should have a sway bar. I know the crawlers use some nice set ups that are made from torsion bars. the same could be adapted to a sidecar to the rig coner flat.

here is a good example of a kit: http://www.welderseries.com/blog/onl.../sway-bar-kit/

some are even easy to adapt






from a suspension build stand point it seems logical to build the swing arm to follow the angle of the tugs swingarm. Most are in the 7 degree range. For the sportster one could copy the mount location for the shocks and length of the arm, that would give a balanced travel and keep the same stroke ratio.

If you calculated wheel rate on both the car and the bike then a suspension shop could dial in the spring rates and damping curves that would allow the suspension to operate in unison.

I'm more than open for correction as I am comping for a car and bike word and things may not be as they appear
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by johnwesley View Post
So if one was to build a rig for increased car travel then I would ass/u/me that it should have a sway bar. I know the crawlers use some nice set ups that are made from torsion bars. the same could be adapted to a sidecar to the rig coner flat.

here is a good example of a kit: http://www.welderseries.com/blog/onl.../sway-bar-kit/

This is Claude's forte.

Some bar rates and calculations for you.

http://www.1speedway.com/sb_rates.htm




Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwesley View Post
some are even easy to adapt

from a suspension build stand point it seems logical to build the swing arm to follow the angle of the tugs swingarm. Most are in the 7 degree range. For the sportster one could copy the mount location for the shocks and length of the arm, that would give a balanced travel and keep the same stroke ratio.

If you calculated wheel rate on both the car and the bike then a suspension shop could dial in the spring rates and damping curves that would allow the suspension to operate in unison.

I'm more than open for correction as I am comping for a car and bike word and things may not be as they appear


Once again, what is it that you want from the finished rig. Yes, you have addressed that question, but , the tub will be lighter than the bike, so mimicking the bike's suspension isn't altogether necessary, nor is it at times desirable.

A shorter swing arm, mine are usually in the 5" ~ 9" range ... hey, no personal jokes ... coupled with an arm that is angled upwards at rest still allow for a healthy amount of travel depending on how you design the shock points.

Remember, on an outfit it's primary purpose is to add comfort and as long as it doesn't bottom out at speed, it's all good ... it doesn't aid axle articulation so it's not going to assist you in an RTI competition nor on the trail.

Chris ( bmweuro ) is the only other builder I've seen on the forum that , if not favors them , has used them with good results. See his build thread on the green R100gspd and modified ural tub.


... oh, there is no advantage in using expensive bike shocks when a multi adjustable car coil over ( some with 36 position rebound and damping control ) achieve better results for a fraction of the cost.



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Old 02-25-2014, 07:25 PM   #38
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i was looking at trailing arm for the car. if I do that with the arm angled down when it compresses the wheel moves back and gives a smoother ride. Obviously if I did a leading arm then the opposite is true

which way do you have the arm running?
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:27 PM   #39
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FR 700 has about the best grasp of what you want, you may want to go spend some time with Claude and ride one of his around a bit.Are you building this rig or do you have a fabricator you like ? DB
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:36 PM   #40
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I have been talking with Claude. I have looked at tons of pics on his FB page and some here. I like his building style. Looks very well thought out. I see a lot of smart engineering on the details of the build. Just the way he does the gussets and mounts. They appear to come from someone who has been fabbing along time with a eye out for a better way. The biggest issue is distance as he is 1,200 miles from me. We have picked out some details but haven't worked it all out. He is swamped right now.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:37 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by johnwesley View Post
i was looking at trailing arm for the car. if I do that with the arm angled down when it compresses the wheel moves back and gives a smoother ride. Obviously if I did a leading arm then the opposite is true

which way do you have the arm running?



Mine is a trailing arm, as are all my builds. The shock is not directly mounted to the arm and the ride height bell crank is horizontally below parallel with the frame.

Angled down ... will also reduce wheel lead when compressing, which may or may not come into play halfway 'round a sweeper as the COG shifts.

The smoothness of the ride is dependent on the damping of the shock. The way mine is set up it introduces a rising rate. The shock angle also contributes its own rising rate so they compliment each other while still soaking up small and large bumps. * edit, plus my roll and instant centers are further forward due to the design.

... and you thought this was gonna be simple



Pic's taken from my current build thread. If I want more travel from the chair suspension I only need to change one thing.



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Old 02-25-2014, 09:59 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by johnwesley View Post
I have been talking with Claude. I have looked at tons of pics on his FB page and some here. I like his building style. Looks very well thought out. I see a lot of smart engineering on the details of the build. Just the way he does the gussets and mounts. They appear to come from someone who has been fabbing along time with a eye out for a better way. The biggest issue is distance as he is 1,200 miles from me. We have picked out some details but haven't worked it all out. He is swamped right now.
John,
I agree with the trailing arm setup. If you want to discuss brakes in more detail feel free to call. Floating calipers can be done on a sidecar swingarm just as they are on a leading link. This can segregate the braking and the suspension which can technically be a plus. However....even though this type of thing is doable and even though the theory is real we must wonder if doing it is really worth the effort. Sidecar suspensions can be pretty wold if one wishes to get into it but it is questionable if th effort is a big enough payoff to do some of these things.
Heck going to a double a frame with all the stuff that it can be made to do even sounds good.
But,,,,, in the real world under 99 percent of the circumstances a properly angled trailing arm with a properly mounted shock and a swaybar that works is not all that bad.
If you really want to go nuts we can head down that road with you though ...lol.
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Old 02-25-2014, 10:10 PM   #43
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This is Claude's forte.

Some bar rates and calculations for you.

http://www.1speedway.com/sb_rates.htm

.
These types of charts are good but many factors still come into play. We are running torsion arms of varied lengths on swingarms of varied lengths with connections points (pick up points) in varied places and connection links on various angles.....so it stands to reason that varied results can be the outcome.
We also cannot forget that sidecars are non symmetrical vehicles. All of this comes into play to a point.

Fun huh?
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:10 PM   #44
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These types of charts are good but many factors still come into play. We are running torsion arms of varied lengths on swingarms of varied lengths with connections points (pick up points) in varied places and connection links on various angles.....so it stands to reason that varied results can be the outcome.
We also cannot forget that sidecars are non symmetrical vehicles. All of this comes into play to a point.

Fun huh?

You have a very valid point. That is why you use different length arms and attach your links to take advantage of the leverage at the connection points , both at the swingarm and the arms of the bar


They can be a simple and quite pleasurable thing. But, as owners grow ,so will there expectations of their rigs if they push the envelope.

It's one of the reasons I enjoy seeing Brock's and your work, Claude. Your new LL to replace the telelever looks very interesting. If you haven't picked it, I enjoy the engineering that goes into a build. I concur with an early statement by you in a reply to John, there is a point of diminishing returns on some of this stuff.


Have fun.

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Old 02-26-2014, 05:16 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by FR700 View Post
Mine is a trailing arm, as are all my builds. The shock is not directly mounted to the arm and the ride height bell crank is horizontally below parallel with the frame.

Angled down ... will also reduce wheel lead when compressing, which may or may not come into play halfway 'round a sweeper as the COG shifts.

The smoothness of the ride is dependent on the damping of the shock. The way mine is set up it introduces a rising rate. The shock angle also contributes its own rising rate so they compliment each other while still soaking up small and large bumps. * edit, plus my roll and instant centers are further forward due to the design.

... and you thought this was gonna be simple



Pic's taken from my current build thread. If I want more travel from the chair suspension I only need to change one thing.





love the lines on that car. This sounds like building crawler suspension all over again but with an off set wheel and only one tire producing anti-squat. I broke a spool once and just had one wheel pushing and it was not easy to get out, worse than a open diff.

anyway this does bring many engineering thoughts. If any thing like the crawler world I have seen some rigs that did not work on paper, but man they worked well in rocks
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