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Old 01-29-2006, 09:43 AM   #61
Indian
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Another advantage of the coventional system would be the number of small roadside workshops in remote parts of the world which would actually rewind the rotor or stator for you if needed.
This reminds me of a guy I met about 20 years ago with a Suzuki with a flat battery. This bike model was never sold in Norway.
I took him to a shop which rewound his stator and he managed to continue his journey.
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Old 01-29-2006, 10:04 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockt
Thanks for your input Greg. You look at both sides and that's good.

Even though our hypothetical GS owner is electrically clueless, I happen to know for a fact that he would never take a bike to a dealer 'cause he would want to figure it out and be able to trust the work. Does this change your recommendations?

Also, would mounting the reg./rec. where it gets lots of airflow decrease the odds of it failing and causing the stator windings to overheat?
If airflow and overheating is the issue, have a look at the Lima Controller that is mounted where the regulator. This controller does away with both the regulator and diode board.
This controller can be found at the Silent Hektik site which is linked from my page.
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Old 01-29-2006, 10:22 AM   #63
Donkey Hotey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockt
...he would want to figure it out and be able to trust the work. Does this change your recommendations?
The Enduralast has fewer components so in the end, it would be the easiest to figure out for someone not comfortable with electrics:

1) Measure the battery voltage while the engine is running. Is it over 13 volts at about 2500 RPM? If so, everything is fine.

2) If it's not, unplug the Enduralast stator from the regulator. Start the engine. Measure between each of the three wires (AC scale). Do you have about 15-18VAC between ANY pair combination? If so the stator is good, replace the regulator rectifier unit.

3) If any pair of windings is not putting out full voltage, replace both components because there is no way for a mortal to check the regulator rectifier unit.

It's simple to troubleshoot but not cheap. So if the Enduralast fails, you're replacing about $400 worth of parts. By comparison, you'd spend a similar amount to replace a stator and rectifier/regulator on a Honda so it's not unreasonable--just not palatable to me.

OTOH, the stock and Omega systems use many inexpensive components but are more complicated to troubleshoot. IMO getting rid of the stock diode board and ground jumper harness fixes all of the "problems" with the stock system. Beyond that, it's a reliable design. The Omega is just more output.

All the talk about brushes is just whining. As I posted before, every car on the road uses the exact same design. If brush wear really weighs heavy on somebody's mind, check them before a long trip and carry a spare set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockt
Also, would mounting the reg./rec. where it gets lots of airflow decrease the odds of it failing and causing the stator windings to overheat?
I went to GREAT trouble to move the second rectifier on my 86 Goldwing to test that theory. They regularly failed at 60K intervals. After running 8 gauge wire to the back of the bike, I mounted the rectifier to the back of the license plate bracket. It didn't help a thing.

That one failed at 60K as well (with no warning--and the bike had a stock digital voltmeter). THAT is exactly why I am so opposed to fixed magnet charging systems. We've debated this to death. I just wanted to jump in and present an opposing view.
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Old 01-29-2006, 11:28 AM   #64
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This is great info. Thanks Greg and Indian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCifu
IMO getting rid of the stock diode board and ground jumper harness fixes all of the "problems" with the stock system. Beyond that, it's a reliable design. The Omega is just more output.
Greg, what diode board would you recommend? Would the Lima Controller
Indian recommended fix the diode board problems?

Indian, the info. on the Lima Controller is in German. Do you know of an English version? And do you know the price?

Thanks again guys.
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Old 01-29-2006, 11:31 AM   #65
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Also, I heard about using a Police model voltage regulator to allow charging at lower rpm's. Anyone know if this is true? It would mean I could cruise at lower revs and not worry about my charging system not charging.
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Old 01-29-2006, 11:47 AM   #66
Donkey Hotey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockt
Greg, what diode board would you recommend?
I have no direct experience with any of the aftermarket solutions for just the diode board. My 88 blew the rotor. I bought a replacement from Motorrad Electrik. For the diode board, I machined my own retrofit bracket to fit a GM diode block in there, then made my own rectifier harness. I believe that is the basic idea behind the Thunderchild and maybe others.

That solution gets you all of the wattage the system is capable of but remember that it doesn't buy you any MORE wattage. In perfect condition, the stock system is still too weak for high current accessories like driving lights and electric clothing. That's why I went to the Omega.

I know nothing about the Lima controller. Indian? We'll turn it over to you...
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:18 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockt
This is great info. Thanks Greg and Indian.



Greg, what diode board would you recommend? Would the Lima Controller
Indian recommended fix the diode board problems?

Indian, the info. on the Lima Controller is in German. Do you know of an English version? And do you know the price?

Thanks again guys.
I have tried to translate using Babelfish and after editing to a more English friendly text using my extremely limited German.
'The SH lima controller-Micro chip automatic controller with a low-loss electric rectifier. Developed for the Martinek Guzzi, which participated with the 24h von LeMans. Improved early load characteristic with higher efficiency under 2000 U/min.'


The unit pictured is for the Guzzi. The graph below applies to both models.
Check out the dealer Motoren Israel site which is also linked from my site. There is an English catalogue there too.


SH-K=SilentHektik Lima Controller
B-R= Authority automatic controller(police model)
ST-R. = Seriel Transistorized Regulator
SK-R. = Seriel Standard Regulator


The price for the unit: R4132 lima controller 12V 37A with cooling fins 167.00
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Old 01-29-2006, 04:34 PM   #68
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Eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian
Another advantage of the coventional system would be the number of small roadside workshops in remote parts of the world which would actually rewind the rotor or stator for you if needed.
Same applies to the Enduralast stator, Injun! Actually, that one would be a lot easier to rewind ...

I don't think there's a clear choice between the two systems: as I've said a squillion times, if I was leaving for Siberia the next day I'd probably install the Omega system because it has a longer track record. It's also plug-and-play, and anyone who understands the BMW charging system will find it easy to check out since it works the same way.

As it is, I won't be crossing Siberia any time soon, I do all my own bike work anyway, and I've installed the Enduralast system. It helps that I know a fair bit about electronics, and feel confident installing and troubleshooting this system. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is not comfortable soldering connectors, as shoddy installation could lead to rapid failure. However, a properly installed system is, in my opinion, unlikely to fail.

Someone mentioned cooling: yes, cooling airflow is critical to the regulator, and indeed to all semiconductors ... failure rate at 110C is about 35x failure rate at 55C. This is the main problem with the stock diode board location inside the front engine cases. I'm amazed the Omega system doesn't relocate the diodes somewhere more sensible.

-----sharks
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Old 01-29-2006, 08:47 PM   #69
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Okay, I've made a decision - I'm going with Enduralast for 2 reasons.

1. It is less expensive. Alot less expensive right now.

2. I'm not going to Bungle Bungle Kilimanjahara anytime soon.

Okay, 3 reasons. The "test pilots" here don't seem to offer any real reservations about either system.

Thanks to all for your information, great logic on both sides, but in the end, both seem to be well suited to my application and one of them is over $100 cheaper.
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:39 AM   #70
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Fitting a rectifier to an R80G/S

Just updated ...

Feb 1, 2006

http://tinyurl.com/aydkf

After a few thousand miles, the next step is to move the Enduralast over to the G/S. I contacted John and got a spare rectifier to take along on the trip. Mounting the rectifier proved unexpectedly easy. I was dreading having to fight for space under the Acerbis tank where I'd only last week managed to squeeze in an alarm system. A visit to my welder netted the simplest of solutions. After debating a bracket welded to something given the tank's hogging of all the frame space, he suggested an aluminum plate right behind the battery. That would allow the battery straps to catch the plate and provide a mounting surface for the rectifier. Since it's about as close as you can get to the battery, this seemed an excellent plan. Below is a pic of the aluminum plate. It's 5.5 X 7 inches. It sits right along the battery (which is the same size) and fits snugly between the battery box and the battery. The rectifier points backwards towards the rear fender. It's completely in the open and does not interfere with anything. I run a full toolbox under the seat, FWIW. The wiring runs downwards. Come to think of this, I should have followed the same system on my RT. I run a smaller diameter Odyssey PC 680 and there is a LOT of room at the front of the battery to do something similar.

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Old 02-01-2006, 01:59 PM   #71
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Thumb My Experience with the EnDuraLast System

I have had one of the EnDuraLast sytems on my hack rig all winter up here in Milwaukee and it has been doing great!
I have a 1982 R100RT with the fold-out fog/driving lights (55w ea, only one turns on at a time), a 55w headlight on the chair, as well as the extra tail/brake light, turn signals, heated grips, and my new GF has commandeered my 'lectric vest when she rides in the chair...

I can run with everything turned on above 4,000rpm with no problems.

Because I know that A/C current doesn't suffer as much loss traveling over distances, (That is why your house gets A/C current) I put my Rectifier/Regulator back by the battery. Gets it away from the heat of the engine, very short D/C path to the battery, lots of cooling air back there, and plenty of space.

The bullet connectors were all cut off and replaced with Posi-Lock connectors wherever a wire needed to be extended/joined. Same for the stator plug. They have a great solid mechanical grip, are field removable/reusable, and don't require any special tools. I have used them for quite a while in many applications with great results. www.posi-lock.com

Tapped into switched power at the coils. Right out in the open and handy, and on the dual-coil models, there is even an empty terminal on top of the coil just waiting for a female blade connector to be put on! Though I may change that and take it up into the headlight shell and plug into the contact board inside of there... Get the connection out of the elements, and reduce the miniscule chance that any additional draw on the coil feed wire will affect ignition performance. But it hasn't that I have noticed...

I will try to get some pictures of my installation posted over at my site and let you all know when they are up.

Malindi - That plate looks like a good idea. Just make sure that you have countersunk fasteners on back so you don't wear a hole thru your battery case...
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Old 02-01-2006, 04:17 PM   #72
rockt
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Hey Karl, thanks for the info. Is that a rubber mount I see for the rec./reg.? If not, I wonder if that would be a good idea.
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Old 02-01-2006, 06:55 PM   #73
Malindi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockt
Hey Karl, thanks for the info. Is that a rubber mount I see for the rec./reg.? If not, I wonder if that would be a good idea.
It's the stock rubber mount for the battery, with a small addition for the rectifier.
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Old 02-01-2006, 09:41 PM   #74
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So, would it be a good idea to rubber mount it, or would it not make a difference?
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Old 02-01-2006, 09:49 PM   #75
Malindi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockt
So, would it be a good idea to rubber mount it, or would it not make a difference?
It probably makes very little difference. The most important parts are cooling (free airflow) and a proper ground to battery negative. And the shorter the wires are to the battery from the rectifier, the better. I thought the wires had to be short to the rotor, else I would have mounted my rectifier elsewhere on the RT.
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