ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Trials
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-11-2014, 07:37 AM   #31
2feetdown OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2014
Location: missouri
Oddometer: 92
I debated before I started this post I did not want to start a debate and anger. However since El trial went along with the FIM I felt something needed to be said before NATC and other event follow the FIMs dictation. I say dictation because I honestly believe that 2/3 or more want to stop.

So I guess its too late the trial had no problems so some will take that as see there it works and it will divide us from within. It wont destroy the sport because the sport cant be completely destroyed because too much fun can be had with 2-3-4 guys laying out sections and just plain ole riding trials for fun. I sincerly hope im wrong and this gives trials a big boost and ill will gladly eat my crow but plain old common sense tells me it wont. The love of the sport is what drives me I cant balance worth anything to stop or hop and would benefit from the rule change so my arguments is for the love of the sport.
2feetdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 08:14 AM   #32
PSchrauber
Studly Adventurer
 
PSchrauber's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: Kemiö, Finland; Winter: North Germany
Oddometer: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Yes - Honda wants it. But try to Find a statement from the others supporting this claim. (your turn) The others will not publicly go against the FIM as they did agree that sales were down - I dont believe it went any further than that, but the politicians turn it into something it wasn't.

First as Mr. Michaud talked with them, (and he had), and the other manufactures remain silent this is in this case an agree.

Second, who is the checker? I believe you are writing about the observer?

To the observers:
There might be observers that need more training that's true and it was already mentioned by the FIM / Mr. Michaud. In my personal opinion the observer is as good as any referee in other sport disciplines, there happen often unseen fouls even goals or wrong given decision, at least in soccer for example. The problem is they get seldom paid even in international events, so most of them are non professional observers.

Compared to other sporting events, all the discussion about one wrong decision is completely overestimated in my personal opinion.

Wrong observations are part of the event, they should not happen but they do as all people are still human. It did even happen to me too that there was once counted a second dab were there was only one but also the opposite.

I give you my personal advice to do some observation in trials (which I do) than you will see that it is sometimes not so easy to make the right decision, anyway in doubt the less harder "penalty" to the rider should be given.

Again the course of the section is the task. You have to look through the section and make your decision in forehand which route to take this is an essential part of trials and is irrelevant if hopping around is allowed.
PSchrauber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 09:09 AM   #33
laser17
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Boston,Massachusetts
Oddometer: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSchrauber View Post
First as Mr. Michaud talked with them, (and he had), and the other manufactures remain silent this is in this case an agree.

Second, who is the checker? I believe you are writing about the observer?

To the observers:
There might be observers that need more training that's true and it was already mentioned by the FIM / Mr. Michaud. In my personal opinion the observer is as good as any referee in other sport disciplines, there happen often unseen fouls even goals or wrong given decision, at least in soccer for example. The problem is they get seldom paid even in international events, so most of them are non professional observers.

Compared to other sporting events, all the discussion about one wrong decision is completely overestimated in my personal opinion.

Wrong observations are part of the event, they should not happen but they do as all people are still human. It did even happen to me too that there was once counted a second dab were there was only one but also the opposite.

I give you my personal advice to do some observation in trials (which I do) than you will see that it is sometimes not so easy to make the right decision, anyway in doubt the less harder "penalty" to the rider should be given.

Again the course of the section is the task. You have to look through the section and make your decision in forehand which route to take this is an essential part of trials and is irrelevant if hopping around is allowed.

Sorry - we interchange checking and observing. You know us lazy americans cant even get our own language right.

I do alot of observing and regularly help put on local events including alot of section design. I have also checked at nationals here. I really enjoy it, but to hold local events, I need the support of my entire motorcycle club (not just a trials club), and the general feedback is that they have alot of fun putting them on. Im very worried that if it becomes "not fun", we wont have the club support. So far, the NATC hasnt changed anything, but if it does, and our checkers (sorry observers) are inconsistent, there will be arguments. These are not professional observers as you correctly stated above, just a motorcycle fan out having fun on a Sunday and supporting there fellow riders. They dont need the aggravation that comes with stop allowed decisions (judgement calls). In fact, I would like to get rule changed regarding the no backing up in stop allowed for the same reason. Put them on the clock - backup all you want, but many will lose points and time doing so. I say good luck and have fun. Make the CHECKERS job easy so they will want to do it again and we can RIDE! Dammit - there's that checker word again..

Lets just have a vote and see what the majority wants. I have a feeling it really wont be that close! Heres my new Mantra!


laser17 screwed with this post 04-11-2014 at 09:24 AM
laser17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 10:41 AM   #34
ridenm
not waiting anymore
 
ridenm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Carnuel, NM USA
Oddometer: 2,512
I've been in this sport long enough now to have participated in the debate at the local level several times. Here's my take:

Observed trials is about riding the motorcycle. As in, feet up and balancing what is inherently an unstable machine that will if left to its own devices fall over. If you have your foot down and are still moving, you are not riding, just moving the motorcycle -- hence the penalty points for dabbing. If you have your foot down and are stopped, you are definitely not riding. Given my lack of skill, the stop dab rule has allowed me to regroup and possibly finish sections that would have earned me a five, but that speaks more to my lack of skill and the escalation of class line difficulty that has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

I like the no-stop rules for its emphasis on line selection and keeping the action moving, but I like stop rules because it doesn't penalize someone who is still riding a motorcycle, be that riding forward, backward, sideways, or briefly motionless. In my opinion, balancing a motionless motorcycle is still riding, but you do eventually have to move the thing in order to finish the section.

Why would Honda support no-stop? Gee, that's a hard one. Which of the manufacturers would gain an advantage under no-stop rules? Maybe the one fully invested in selling tractable four-stroke trials motorcycles with a reputation for finding traction where the two-strokes cannot?
__________________
I've learned to live with reduced expectations--I'm a Vikings fan.
ridenm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 11:59 AM   #35
LowPSI
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: California
Oddometer: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2feetdown View Post
I debated before I started this post I did not want to start a debate and anger. However since El trial went along with the FIM I felt something needed to be said before NATC and other event follow the FIMs dictation. I say dictation because I honestly believe that 2/3 or more want to stop.

So I guess its too late the trial had no problems so some will take that as see there it works and it will divide us from within. It wont destroy the sport because the sport cant be completely destroyed because too much fun can be had with 2-3-4 guys laying out sections and just plain ole riding trials for fun. I sincerly hope im wrong and this gives trials a big boost and ill will gladly eat my crow but plain old common sense tells me it wont. The love of the sport is what drives me I cant balance worth anything to stop or hop and would benefit from the rule change so my arguments is for the love of the sport.
The El Trial volunteered to use the Non Stop system as a test. To learn. No one dictated to us. Not FIM. Not NATC. The NATC has clearly stated that it will not use the Non Stop for 2014 and 2015. No club has been forced to use it.


In order to evaluate something you must first test it. Forming an opinion without testing is called "guessing".

The El Trial has a long history of innovation.

It was the first event to invite all the TOP riders from all over the US to compete together.

-The first NATC meeting was held in conjunction with El Trial #3.

- The first event to raise funds to send American riders to compete in the World Championship.

- -The Pro Exhibition was introduced at the 3rd El Trial. It is now the format used in the Pro Shootout at many US Nationals.

-The Pro Exhibition has been run using many different rules. We have tried them all.

I agree with you that it won't destroy the sport. A healthy exchange of ideas is a good thing. But when it turns ugly the progress stops.

LowPSI screwed with this post 04-11-2014 at 01:16 PM
LowPSI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 12:05 PM   #36
LowPSI
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: California
Oddometer: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
The riders DID say they were against it and reprimanded for it.
Not True. Only one rider was reprimanded :Adam Raga. It was for his personal insults to Thierry Michaud. The FIM supported the riders right to disagree with the Non Stop but would not tolerate unsportsmanlike behavior.
LowPSI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 12:38 PM   #37
LowPSI
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: California
Oddometer: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Heres a video of Cody (on facebook) riding Stop allowed in the supposedly no stop ETdE. How many times does he come to a stop? Nobody can agree on a number, but most agree its more then 0 times. Hell - he even backs up! WTF people!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater


Its not cool to claim this as a great no-stop event when its not scored that way. Lots of money on the line and observers just didnt want to throw the 5. That's fine but not consistent OR how the rules are written. Again - a big reason this can not be endorsed by riders or clubs who want to keep things simple for the checkers. (Im in favor of making them simpler if ANYTHING)
The explanation for relaxing the scoring for the Pro Exhibition is clearly explained by our clubs members in the comments below the video. You must have read it when you copied the video.


For those that are interested in the truth, here is what happened. We had only one Pro rider attend the El Trial. We had only an Expert and a High School rider that were also willing to attempt the Pro Exhibition. The Pro EXHIBITION were 3 very difficult sections laid out near the pits for spectator enjoyment. With such a huge difference in the ability of the 3 riders we made a decision to relax the scoring for the Exhibition only.

We are not bothered by critics from 3 thousand miles away.

The real problem here is the lack of Pro Riders in the US. We had 5 promising young Pro Riders from Southern California. They have all quit the sport. There will be only 3 Pro riders US Nationals that ride the whole series.

LowPSI screwed with this post 04-11-2014 at 01:23 PM
LowPSI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 01:00 PM   #38
LowPSI
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: California
Oddometer: 268
[QUOTE=PSchrauber;23909146]First as Mr. Michaud talked with them, (and he had), and the other manufactures remain silent this is in this case an agree.

PS Please understand. All the manufacturers agreed to the all the new rule changes. They all were in the same meeting together. They all signed the agreement. This has been said many many times before but some refuse to believe it.

I have spoken to Thierry Michaud and several representatives that were in the meeting and witnessed the signing of the agreement. They all signed. (except JotaGas.they did not attend the meeting)


The latest FREE issue of Trials and Enduro News has an interview with FIM Trials Commissioner Thierry Michaud .....sign up for T&E News ...it's FREE!!
http://tandenews.com/enduro/check-out-the-april-issue-of-te-news/

also RETROTRIALS.COM HAS AN INTERVIEW

http://www.retrotrials.com/2014-inte...-strategy.html



A few years ago when the Trials market was "healthy" the total number of bikes sold worldwide was 20,000 + units and there was 5 brands. Now the total number of sales is 5000 and now there are 7 soon to be 9 brands.

You can see why the factories are worried. Yes,the economy is a big part of the decline. But are there are other factors as well.



LowPSI screwed with this post 04-11-2014 at 01:21 PM
LowPSI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 02:06 PM   #39
laser17
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Boston,Massachusetts
Oddometer: 703
LOWPSI - Please enlighten us as to the data you have that suggests turning the sport upside down has helped turn things around and will help grow the sport back to the glory of the good ol days. Clearly there must be some data by now. What market data is being utilized - any? If you can provide this, it will go along way towards helping people understand and possibly accept where your coming from. But, If you cant, please don't expect people to line up and follow you like dodo's on yours or TM's say so. SHOW US! None of the interviews you posted have any DATA - it all just propaganda! The same old propaganda to boot.

BTW: Cabs initially voiced his displeasure with the no-stop decision as well and then backed off and said he better not say anything. Raga said the same thing after the apology letter. I don't believe there are any top riders who support it.

I find it interesting that when you put on an exhibition to show off the best of what trials can be, you have to rely on going back to Stop Allowed. I understand that because if you laid it out for no stop, it would be boring or too dangerous - evidently even for Cody, not just the people riding up.

laser17 screwed with this post 04-11-2014 at 03:01 PM
laser17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 02:38 PM   #40
brewtus
Buffoonery, Inc.
 
brewtus's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Albuquerque, not New, not Mexico.......
Oddometer: 2,810
To stop in a section or not was certainly not on my mind too much at our last event last weekend. I did however, keep my "foot down" time to an absolute minimum in Lineaway's section because I didn't want to get razzed for it.

His was the only section I did not clean, either. Damn, the pressure.....

Stop/no stop makes for good campfire banter, but I can't really say it has me worked up too much just yet. If that's the way the FIM wants to run their show, fine. LPSI verified what I had already heard that the NATC is not going to change to NS for at least the next 2 seasons, and even after that NMTA will probably wait at least a season or two before adopting it (or not). By that time, things may have changed, who knows? Bottom line, it does not affect the fun that I currently enjoy in Trials. I'm not a fan of NS, but it's not burning my barn down either.
__________________
Work hard. Play hard.
Team Dead End. The drinking team with a Trials problem.
2-Time winner of the coveted "Best Shenanigans" award at Capt. Rick's annual BBQ.
brewtus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 03:09 PM   #41
LowPSI
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: California
Oddometer: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
LOWPSI - Please enlighten us as to the data you have that suggests turning the sport upside down has helped turn things around and will help grow the sport back to the glory of the good ol days. Clearly there must be some data by now. What market data is being utilized - any? If you can provide this, it will go along way towards helping people understand and possibly accept where your coming from. But, If you cant, please don't expect people to line up and follow you like dodo's on yours or TM's say so. SHOW US! None of the interviews you posted have any DATA - it all just propaganda! The same old propaganda to boot.
You make no sense. You ask for data/info and then when it is given you call it propaganda.

No one has asked you to follow anything. You are free to do as you please. Go enjoy the sport any way you want.

LowPSI screwed with this post 04-11-2014 at 03:26 PM
LowPSI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 04:17 PM   #42
laser17
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Boston,Massachusetts
Oddometer: 703
Evidently you don't know what data is. There is only ancient history, philosophies(to quote TM) and propaganda in these articles (and i'm being nice here). If I missed the data tables, please point them out. I'll wait.

For instance, What are the growth numbers year over year? (This whole thing is all about growth - so what was it last year as compared to prior years) These are very basic market indicators that I hope the people making these decisions are following. I don't know of a single commercial company that doesn't track how there doing. I dont see anything that resembles that in those articles. I think I know why, as all of the polls I've seen run 2:1 against no stop. Do you care what the majority thinks or just know better?......

laser17 screwed with this post 04-11-2014 at 04:39 PM
laser17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 08:44 PM   #43
lineaway
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: nm
Oddometer: 2,355
Hmmm, Sales numbers is what the factories want. Rider numbers are more economy factors and 80% of all clubs membership is too damn old. Too old like us!
lineaway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 08:49 PM   #44
Old Geezer
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Old Geezer's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: New Mexico
Oddometer: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Hmmm, Sales numbers is what the factories want. Rider numbers are more economy factors and 80% of all clubs membership is too damn old. Too old like us!
Too old ???
__________________
Old Geezer on a Old Weezer

76 TY175
Whitehawk 80
Old Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 09:05 PM   #45
lineaway
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: nm
Oddometer: 2,355
Too old to buy a `new` bike when there are perfectly good `old` ones!
lineaway is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 03:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014