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Old 04-12-2014, 01:13 AM   #46
jonnyc21
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Sales #'s...

I would be intrested to know if there is any movement in the upward direction in sales for the companies... anyone know any #'s?
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Old 04-12-2014, 05:57 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowPSI View Post
...

PS Please understand. All the manufacturers agreed to the all the new rule changes. They all were in the same meeting together. They all signed the agreement. This has been said many many times before but some refuse to believe it.

I have spoken to Thierry Michaud and several representatives that were in the meeting and witnessed the signing of the agreement. They all signed. (except JotaGas.they did not attend the




...
First:
Mr. LowPSI aka Herr Besserwisser please keep qoutes and your post respectful in future ... thank you very much.

Second:
The rule here is show it up or it did not happen.
Trials in my experience is still a very unknown motorsport. As motorcycle riders in general are a minority and even so are dirt- bike riders only a small minority compared to street bike riders. From this fraction of a minority are trials riders only a few. Anyway we should not believe the world is surrounding around us instead we have to pace with the world. So keep your emotions low and try to be objective.

Third:
I personal understand the view of some hete that like to hop on big obstacles it's cool, demanding and artistic. The problem is when you can do it it's easy, for a beginner it's not. I believe that trials is one of the few sports were you first need to train yourself a lot before entering competitions.

Everyone can ride a MX- or a street track, certainly not so fast as needed in first rounds but you can do it. In trials you can't you first have to learn how to ride.

I believe ( not sure here ) what the FIM want to do and some manufatories too is that trials has to get more accessible in the future. More accessibility means an easier start for everyone and especially for the beginner to have fun in the sections. You don't have fun when you struggle in every section or see how extremly good only a few riders are when you ride the first time.

For getting more riders in trials I believe we have to have less difficult sections were everyone would like to give trials a try. Instead of sections were big obstacles are placed in a row and riders try them out and I between needs minutes bouncing around to find the right position, that's ( in between ) too boring to look at and time consuming.

I think too we need another attitude not to show everyone how good we can jump hop climb obstacles up and down instead show and help beginners to ride feet up in modulated terrain with fancy curves.

In numbers the last Inter- Nordic trials in March had 138 entrys from over 8 countrys. Our first North German classic trials had nearly 100 entrys. In modern trials the entry numbers for trials competitions are going down remarkable.

And I'am not talking about old farts getting in there sport again after beeing off for some decades, there are a lot really young riders and even female riders of any age that now have started riding trials ... but not on new bikes on old ones !!! This might at least the modern riders give a task to think about and I believe too the companys have recognized this " shifting " too.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:32 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by jonnyc21 View Post
I would be intrested to know if there is any movement in the upward direction in sales for the companies... anyone know any #'s?
Sales should be up as the economy continues to improve. I think the European economy is finally showing signs of recovery. So its going to be hard to measure. What i cant understand and confuses me is how is going to no-stop suppose to increase sales of bikes.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:06 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSchrauber View Post
First:
. I believe that trials is one of the few sports were you first need to train yourself a lot before entering competitions.

Everyone can ride a MX- or a street track, certainly not so fast as needed in first rounds but you can do it. In trials you can't you first have to learn how to ride.
Not so here in the U.S., most local events I've seen have Beginner classes that will accommodate small children or people with very little riding experience.
Anyone with MX or other significant riding experience is usually steered past the beginner class to the Novice class. And yet we still don't get the amount of participation that I think most European events get.
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Old 04-13-2014, 04:16 AM   #50
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Maybe (not sure) the sales numbers has gone down because more people are in classic trials then a decade before.

When I stated riding ther was probably a dozen riders doing so and classic trials riding (pre 65 back then) was a real niche. And look now how many events there are just for classic trials and how many people are doing it. Some are doing both modern and classic trials but most are stuck to what they do.

The manufactors don't sell anything modern to these instead shops that are specialiced in classic trials arise everywere and have good sales also the aftermarket industries for suspension, ... this kind of trials customers can't be reached by the manufactors of modern trials bikes.

Probably too as there are now two groups of riders the classsic ones and modern ones there are now two different views how you have to ride through a section?

Anyway in total:
- modern trials needs good preperation, skills, courage and can be dangerous,
the numbers of participants are stagnating.

- classic trials needs good preperation, skills, courage and is demanding but not dangerous,
the numbers of participants are rising.

This might be the initial problem ... in numbers of sales depending new bikes as a reasonable number of trials riders can't be reached for buying new bikes and these numbers of riders also do like more the stop against the non stop rule as they are practising this. Still I personal believe non stop is in the entirety the more substainable solution before we see again riders correcting the position in front of a obstacle for minutes.
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Old 04-14-2014, 06:49 AM   #51
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I just attended The Comanche Cup in West Texas at a very stunning new venue. 12,000 acres with 900 feet elevation change (4860 ha and 275m). With the several recent changes to my Raga, it has become a precision weapon, a traction machine. It's now to the level of love affair again



I earned my way into 2nd Senior Expert Saturday (gave up 1st in a stall), and 1st on Sunday. In some challenging sections it was a high likelihood of a 3 just to get out. A few times a rock would deflect me off my line and I'd be hung up on nasty stuff. It was very satisfying to be able to recover in a very calm and calculating way, getting a 1, 2, or 3, to audience claps and compliments of, "very nice save!" Had ambiguous pause been the rule, it would have been 5s, frustration, and silence.

It was hot with energy management a prime factor to winning. I was so thankful to not have the ambiguous pause Blowtorch stuck up my ass the whole time. In most sections I rode no pause, because any pauses were a distinct disadvantage with risk of traction loss (picture powder dry dust and marbles). But when it got nasty and borderline safe, I kissed the ability to pause and collect. And that was NEVER minutes. Just a few critical seconds.

By the way, besserwisser means smart aleck. Meinen Sie mich?

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Old 04-14-2014, 10:33 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post

...

By the way, besserwisser means smart aleck. Meinen Sie mich?
Douze points vont aux États-Unis ...

And to the smart aleck which can be translated to "Schlauberger" in German it can be a praise or rebuke, it depends to the sentens.

I adressed it to member LowPSI as he has a unbelievable knowledge about trials in history but sometimes - however - he thinks some here come crept out behind the moon and understand nothing, (which is not the case)
With this German verbal subtlety I wanted to respond appropriately to his posting (in my interest).

It's good to hear that there are no big backdraws with no stop, and I too beleive that a try out in a section while riding (or in dynamic) is much more interesting for the spectator too look at. When the layout of the sections take note of non stop I think it should be as interesting to ride as with stops.

I have no further arguments beside everyone shoud try out ... maybe a stop without any movement ... but we had this already in the nineties and it did not work very well ...
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Old 04-14-2014, 12:33 PM   #53
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I put the "let those who ride decide" up on my facebook page and its gone around the world. (surprised me to see some of the shares - some big names ect..) Looking at the various results from shared pages. its running a very high percentage for stop allowed. (well over 98%) Now, im sure this is a very biased sampling, but STILL! Holly crap! There just NFW no stop will help grow trials when this type of large group of avid trials riders, is vehemently against it. The most comment likes goto the idea of twin shocks ride no stop. Modern rides x-trials stadium rules on the clock.
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:46 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by LowPSI View Post
The real problem here is the lack of Pro Riders in the US. We had 5 promising young Pro Riders from Southern California. They have all quit the sport. There will be only 3 Pro riders US Nationals that ride the whole series.
What???!!!!! That's really sad to hear.

Have you talked with any of them about their reasons? I know that at a certain age school/cars/girls/work take over a teenager's life and thee is time for little else, they may be back someday? Hopefully with a few kids of their own in tow.....
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:13 PM   #55
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What???!!!!! That's really sad to hear.

Have you talked with any of them about their reasons? I know that at a certain age school/cars/girls/work take over a teenager's life and thee is time for little else, they may be back someday? Hopefully with a few kids of their own in tow.....
This has always been this way, nothing new. Go back to the start of Trials in the states. Most of the top riders disappear before the age of twenty never to return. It`s always been an old guys sport. A lot of kids that grew up in the sport also return in there late twenty`s. (But very few of the top riders) We basically have lost our top two riders in our club this year.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:40 PM   #56
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I thought two of the current pro's were headed to Europe this year. That is a good thing for them if there still going, but bad for our numbers.

I can not for the life of me figure out why LOWPSI thinks that this somehow proves stop allowed is therefore evil.. Seems to me if you were to draw anything from it, that its probably unrelated to format (what Lineaway states resonates as true) or worst case because they dont like no stop. (afterall the low event numbers were under a no stop format event) Not that I think that's the case, but I'm not the one holding this up as a obvious condemnation of stop allowed. I cant tolerate this reverse logic political types constantly try to get past people.
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Old 04-14-2014, 09:01 PM   #57
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I NEVER said Stop Allowed was the reason for the projected low Pro Turnout at the 2014 Nationals.

I NEVER said Stop Allowed is evil .

I NEVER said Non Stop is the answer. I have said this from day one.

I have never claimed to have the answer.

I have always said we should keep an OPEN MIND and test Non Stop to see what we can learn.

I realize you are playing games and twisting my words. So be it.

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Old 04-14-2014, 09:55 PM   #58
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No games. If that's truly the case, then I have wildly misunderstood your posts and I apologize for assuming you were driving at something different. I honestly believe the format is not the primary issue for the downturn and know that when you create a large group of disgruntled riders in the process of testing, you risk losing critical mass.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:06 AM   #59
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Risk losing critical mass...

It is exactly the risk losing critical mass, that most concerns me about no-stop.

The interviews I have read about the switch to no-stop contradict themselves quite dramatically. One min talking about its all a show, and makes people think its to hard to ever do, and that its all an acrobatic few that can do it. Then in the same report they talk about how the no stop is harder and people don't like it because its harder.

Why are they talking negative about both options? This dose not make any sense to me at all... I know I am for stop allowed but even with no-stop where is the positive side? Its the best thing I could have ever started doing, the challenge is so worth the effort!

Where is the promotion of the sport in this? I want to hear about how much fun it is, to see review on location cube events with comments and remarks from some of the riders and spectators... Where is the community building events that will bring in all types of riders from any other aria, with ways to help them see the benefits of trials in any and all riding types?

I want to see and hear about ways to promote and share the sport I have become so attached to that I shared it with my wife and daughter and now we all ride... stop or no-stop I want people to see what family fun this is, and could be for them. One of if not the most friendly and helpful group(s) I could have ever been introduced to.

Maybe I am a dreamer however having never seen a statue erected to a critic I say we build the dream together, be willing to talk about how fun it is, how much fun it has helped bring into our life, and all that other great sounding stuff that will at least plant a seed in someones mind that maybe its worth a try.

Lets keep building what mass we can, and remember to talk about the positives and it will happen, even it it is slower than we want and has a few bumps in the road as we go along.

NOTE: I know there is a lot of what I am talking about going on and for all that are involved in the things I described (and others) thank you! And say keep it up, it will make a difference.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:42 AM   #60
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[QUOTE=jonnyc21;23936865]It is exactly the risk losing critical mass, that most concerns me about no-stop.

The interviews I have read about the switch to no-stop contradict themselves quite dramatically. One min talking about its all a show, and makes people think its to hard to ever do, and that its all an acrobatic few that can do it. Then in the same report they talk about how the no stop is harder and people don't like it because its harder.

Why are they talking negative about both options? This dose not make any sense to me at all... I know I am for stop allowed but even with no-stop where is the positive side?
/QUOTE]

The positive side is the event flows and so do the sections if set correctly. I myself have little fun sitting at a section waiting for 45 minutes to ride. ( I realize most riders on this forum have never had this experience.) Modern trials evolved to no-stop which originally was good. Trouble is that the riders became so good that it could take twenty minutes to ride a section. The sections became the equivalent of ribbon in a parking lot. Making the ribbon the obstacles.
For a first time rider or spectator there is little difference between stopping with the foot down or balancing. Same with our modern rules. Really the biggest problem with understanding the `new rules` is a good explanation of the rule to include a pause. A pause with the feet up is allowed ,but it is such a grey area.
What I`m getting at is the stop and hop rules have made the sport more on the boring side. Kind of like watching basketball or hockey, a lot of action but little difference in the score at the end of the day. The all day dab, (Which came from the indoor events to give it MORE competition to the show) has ruined the point spread and has given the riders the ability to ride higher classes without the ability to do so. A false confidence of competing with better riders. It really is so boring to watch all these riders with no skill struggle all day long in a class they do not belong.
Watch the good riders in any average section, without even thinking they can enter a section stop correct there approach, ride a obstacle and hit the correct spot and clean each part step by step. Now have them do it no-stop, the difference is the cannot stop and correct the mistakes they made in line choice.
The positive side of no-stop is the event flows, as it is a motorsports. The sections can be laid out more naturally to the land itself. There is no more all day dab. (Real men hop without the instant kickstand for back up support) There is an honest point spread through the classes. And maybe, just maybe the top classes might come down to earth and there severity of sections. You have to almost kill the top riders to get any points out of them anymore. That is the real reason the USA has almost no top riders. It is dangerous and no money in it.
And besides with no-stop there is no stop watch needed in every section! I come out to ride, I enjoy seeing another rider have a good ride. But I did not come out to sit on my tiny motorcycle seat!
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