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Old 04-15-2014, 07:50 AM   #61
motobene
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Text-only debates cannot convey all the info that comes from a good argument among friend swith beer flowing, so there is always a little misunderstanding.

I already ride 95% of every event no pause. So for me this is a 5% issue, though I do feel strongly about it. In my class there are always a few spots where the ability to briefly pause is how to avoid utterly failing a section. Who wants to fail?

Schrauber, my 'hat is off to you' (that is a good thing) for engaging in a debate in English. You have fluency in Finnish and German and what other languages?

motobene screwed with this post 04-15-2014 at 09:45 PM
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:57 AM   #62
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Lineaway - Don't you think there are fairly easy ways to keep the all day dab out of stop allowed trials. The clock is pretty easy to use, but probably not needed at the club level to keep things moving time wise. Something informal as having the checker count to five when the rider is holding up the show, would suffice IMO.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:21 AM   #63
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Hardly any trials are Nationals. Hardly any trials are crowded. At club level riders are encouraged to start elsewhere than section 1, and most of us start with the group anyway, to watch, learn, socialize.

So the long dab has no great role in diminishing the event. How about the opposite? Watching a stuck rider, or a brilliant one in front of the big wall, manage the moment, plan it, time it, then stick it is possibly the best theater in the sport!

How does it feel to be the guy doing that? On Sunday, section 7 don't you know, there is a series of tight moves leading to a surfboard rock which either just rolls up, or drops you into a big hole. Every Arizona upperclass rider has been in that hole. Well, I arrived at the surfboard off-balance and stopped with a foot down. Planned my ride, rode my plan, see previous paragraph, and DID IT. A career-high moment in the mind of an average, anonymous rider.... took a lot more skill and nerve than doing it right in the first place (like the other two rounds, also a career high!).

This is getting to be a good conversation; thanks to all.
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Old 04-15-2014, 07:22 PM   #64
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Lazer, I`m all for hopping. I love backing up even. But the flow of the section should be there. Graydog, stopping with the foot down is a skill my mother can do. The all day dab is not riding. In fact the trials god just gave you 4 pts less than you should of had because parking the bike is a failure. ( If I cleaned it, I deserved to be way ahead of the rider parked, maybe a three pts for stopping?) But a pause balancing is something to consider good. I wish I had an answer. I would rather ride no-stop, (Itsa rules let you pause and World round rules do too.) than deal with the all day dab that any person with two legs can accomplish. The extreme solution is gate trials or a free for all for 1 second for every meter and anything goes. 10 for a failure, up to five points for dabs. That has always`s been my opinion and have not changed at all. Actually after scoring the world round last year, I am more for the world round rules. Except they have not explained the pause very well to keep the scoring more consistent. Which is the problem every time we change the rules.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:05 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Lazer, I`m all for hopping. I love backing up even. But the flow of the section should be there. Graydog, stopping with the foot down is a skill my mother can do. The all day dab is not riding. In fact the trials god just gave you 4 pts less than you should of had because parking the bike is a failure. ( If I cleaned it, I deserved to be way ahead of the rider parked, maybe a three pts for stopping?) But a pause balancing is something to consider good. I wish I had an answer. I would rather ride no-stop, (Itsa rules let you pause and World round rules do too.) than deal with the all day dab that any person with two legs can accomplish.
Is there an official definition for a pause?

I agree with your opinion of the "all day dab", unfortunately those of us (myself included) that have started riding trials within the past twenty years have learned to ride that way. When I started riding Trials in the early 90s stopping with a foot down was allowed as was hopping backwards (at least at our regional events).
If the long dab was prohibited tomorrow many of our club riders would have to move down a class (myself included), unless section design was slackened substantially.
I'd like to see stopping with a foot down done away with but it will take a long time since many, if not most, riders have never known it any other way.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:13 PM   #66
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Graydog, stopping with the foot down is a skill my mother can do.
Well yeah -- but can your mother get started again from the wrong stopping spot?

Did I set you off Bob?
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:29 PM   #67
lineaway
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No, John you did not set me off. I have hated the all day dab since it started in the indoor rounds. My mother has not ridden since she rode through a large cactus and suffered for months for the barbs to ooze out.( By the way raw bacon wraps are the cure)
Ever since the old rules were changed, ( Gee I loved the rules of hopping, backing up, all while still clean. Too bad time was an issue). we have had many rule changes which all made no sense for normal club rules.
Gate trials seem almost the best way to go. It is awfully cut and dry. ( I did enjoy the win) The plus side is you choose to take or break your own points! Hope we did not jump off the subject line, but it has been a good discussion!
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:44 PM   #68
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I am with Lineaway. We are old and crusty but we know a few things.

Stop Dab = no balance. no movement.

You may be in a tight spot but until you get moving again you are not performing a skill.

Stop dab + stalled engine = 5

The only thing preventing a 5 is keeping the engine running. 4 points. That's a huge reward for idling... something the bike can do without you.

Sorry.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:04 AM   #69
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I think the stopped dab is a safety issue. Lots of people get out of shape momentarily. your going to 5 them?

I agree, Gate trials can be alot of fun.

A small tweak to the current rules is all that is needed (if anything) and would be the most palatable to the majority of riders IMO.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:06 AM   #70
lineaway
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Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
I think the stopped dab is a safety issue. Lots of people get out of shape momentarily. your going to 5 them?
IMO.
Well yes,
that`s why it is called a failure. Not enough fives anymore. You have many riders riding a class above there ability because of this rule. That in itself is not safe. Riding safe is knowing when to pull in the clutch and take your five. The all day dab came from indoor trials and had nothing to do with safety. Just like now the new indoor sump rule, that has nothing at all to do with safety.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:57 AM   #71
LowPSI
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The Stop Dab is a good idea for Novices and Kids. For entry level classes Count only dabs, going out of bounds and tip overs.
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:29 AM   #72
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The Stop Dab is a good idea for Novices and Kids. For entry level classes Count only dabs, going out of bounds and tip overs.
I agree 100%.
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:38 AM   #73
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The problem is it doesn't work that way and people will get hurt. Riders are always going to push themselves and the competitive desire to climb up usually trumps ability at somepoint. I think this is a point where you would be right, but wrong if your trying to grow the sport. Im against the sump rule for the same reason. Ask Jack Challoner about his experience with it. Besides, your just adding another subjective call. Get rid of them and we'll all be better off. KISS is a good approach to many things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
Well yes,
that`s why it is called a failure. Not enough fives anymore. You have many riders riding a class above there ability because of this rule. That in itself is not safe. Riding safe is knowing when to pull in the clutch and take your five. The all day dab came from indoor trials and had nothing to do with safety. Just like now the new indoor sump rule, that has nothing at all to do with safety.
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:57 PM   #74
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Motorcycling in general is very dangerous. If you do not know your own ability, (Which this rule creates a false sense ) then you are a danger to yourself and others. (Usually trials riders have years of experience and should know the limits.)
I scored the world round last year and two days at the New Mexico National. The world round was easier hands down. The US National was hard because of the clock. We had a very long section. So anyone riding above sportsman/senior was racing the clock. Only gave a few fives for time, but 80% finished with less than 5 seconds to spare. First time I ever got stuck with a clock scoring, as it was the most critical element at the moment.
By the way the rules were very simple before we added stopping, hopping and reversing. Took just a few minutes to explain to any volunteer scorer.
I too know the backside to bad calls. I was at TTC at a National in `96, I had won the first day. The second day I was on 2 points with two sections to go. I dabbed going up a ledge, the nearest scorer had me on a one. When I had my card punched it was a five, the scorer replied he was the senior scorer and that was his decision. I would have protested, but I need to drive 1200 miles in the next day and a half. Thing is that has not been the worst mistake a scorer has made when I have traveled over a thousand miles. Subjective is I clean a section and the next guy parks his bike, moves both wheels(The scorer lets him move both wheels backwards six inches to keep it simple) to the best line, catches his breath and I`m only 1 point ahead of him. When being stop and hop no backing up is allowed and he did it twice!!!Fail!
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:02 PM   #75
Gordy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Lineaway - Don't you think there are fairly easy ways to keep the all day dab out of stop allowed trials. The clock is pretty easy to use, but probably not needed at the club level to keep things moving time wise. Something informal as having the checker count to five when the rider is holding up the show, would suffice IMO.
Easy enough , just like the refs in basketball count when a guy stands there holding the ball.

When someone is stopped and has a foot down, start counting out loud, 5,4,3,2,1...get outamysection!

This isn't world trials and for 90% of us, it's not even national level. It's club trials and it needs to be fun. If you have subjective calls by inexperienced checkers (unless you have been scoring no-stop for years, you are inexperienced) it will be a cluster f&#K.

edit: we usually have 10 year olds who are watching the clouds roll by for our observers. Yeah, that will work.
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