ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Battle scooters
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-18-2014, 05:21 AM   #61
klaviator
Beastly Adventurer
 
klaviator's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Oddometer: 5,854
I wouldn't consider buying this until it's been out for a while and there has been some time for people to evaluate it and time for any problems to show up. So far it looks like a possibility to replace my Super 8. Since I expect to do that in around 2 years, I have plenty of time. Also it will take some time for the aftermarket to develope stuff for it. For example, being able to mount a tail trunk is a requirement for me. It doesn't come with a luggage rack. Until someone comes out with a rack to mount a tail trunk on, it's not an option for me.
__________________
I ride, Therefore I Am.



klaviator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 06:48 AM   #62
JerryH
Banned
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 5,069
I actually like it's looks better than the Zuma 125. I like the headlights and front fender better, it doesn't have handguards like a dirt bike, and it doesn't have that looooong rat tail rear fender. And it already has clear turn signals that I paid $50 for for the Zuma. Oh, and it is also 170cc. And if it is the Blur 220 engine instead of the Buddy 170i engine, it shouldn't be overstressed. And comes in solid matte black. Lose the $400 markup, and I would almost certainly choose it over the Zuma or PCX. After it has been proven reliable.
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 08:52 AM   #63
AMAC1680
Studly Adventurer
 
AMAC1680's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Jacksonville Fl/Mantoloking NJ
Oddometer: 610
Here's my issue.
Top end isn't the real selling point of this scoot and the styling is well, being used by a bunch of companies.

Lance Cabo


Holligan


Someone needs to explain the almost 1100.00 difference.
Just my .02

Be Big,
AMAC
__________________
"We live in a world designed for stupid and we have lawyers to help them"
www.SEGS4VETS.org
Kymco DT-300i
SYM RV200 EVO
Lance "Cali Classic" 125
AMAC1680 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 09:47 AM   #64
JerryH
Banned
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 5,069
But look at the Zuma 125. MSRP $3390. I own one, but prefer the Hooligan. I actually paid just under $3000 OTD for it, leftover model on sale. The Hooligan has 45cc more, and is actually freeway legal, and looks better (to me) But looks are a subjective thing and really don't count for much. Don't know if there are any problems with the Hooligan or not, but Genuine has a history of high quality. I just can't see myself buying something that said Lance on it. Lance seems to be SYM's bargain basement line. I don't have an issue with SYM's quality, but there seems to be a parts problem at the moment. JMHO, but I think they should have gotten rid of the Lance name. It has a long history as a cheap crappy Chinese scooter, and even if the quality has substantially improved, I think that name will always hurt it's sales. Seems like once a motor vehicle develops a bad reputation, it lasts forever, whether there is a reason for it or not.
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 10:22 AM   #65
longhaul747 OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: Bothell, WA
Oddometer: 604
I guess we will just have to itemize what you get to justify the difference. It is similarly priced to the Zuma 125 and the PCX150 but has more displacement. Enough that it probably runs a lot smoother and has a lot more reserve power. It is freeway legal however I doubt I would ever take it on the freeway for anything more then a quick on and off same lane kind of situation. Against the Hooligan its air cooled so even with an extra 20cc's it will probably not keep up with the PCX150.

Just what sort of hardware do you get? Early on it was mentioned that it would have a rear disc brake and steel braided brake lines. Better brake calipers and a well tuned suspension etc! Did any of this make into the production version?

If its built in Taiwan vs China that might be worth a few bonus points maybe. The built in China stuff supervised by a reputable manufacture is not much different now days.

I agree with JerryH. If you can get it without the silly fees witch would bring it just a few dollars under 4K out the door in my area it might be worth it. However I still feel Genuine is not a strong enough manufacture and does not have the dealer network to go head to head in price against the big guys out of Japan. Somewhere in the equation I feel its over priced by $500 for this reason.

One thing I am finding interesting is even though these are now hitting dealers I don't see any love or honorable mention on the modern buddy website. Its as if the majority that participate on that forum can care less about it. A very likely sign these will be dealer queens and marked down in the future.

I am still reserved and excited and want to see it in the flesh but I am definitely cautious at the moment.
longhaul747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 10:41 AM   #66
JerryH
Banned
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 5,069
For the same price OTD, I would likely take it over the Zuma. I would probably not pay more for it unless it's performance turns out to be a lot better. I would not sell my Zuma to buy one. I would not compare it to the PCX150, which to me is more of a small maxi scooter, while the Hooligan/Zuma/Lance have more of an urban assault look, especially in matte black. The Zuma has plenty of power for around town, not enough for the highway, and that is kind of where I draw the line. While freeway legal, which really can be a big advantage if you just need to hop on to get from one rural road to another, I don't see the Hooligan as being freeway capable.

In other words, it is probably something I would buy over the Zuma, but already having a Zuma, not something I would trade up to.
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 10:55 AM   #67
k-moe
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Oddometer: 2,544
After reading as much as I an find about the 170i I have one thing that would keep me from getting one. What is the aftermarket support like?

Being able to get a(nother) Zuma 125, and bump it up to 200cc for around $400 tips the scale back to Yamaha for me.
__________________
Mixing metaphors is like killing two birds with a dog that won't hunt.
k-moe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 11:20 AM   #68
JerryH
Banned
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 5,069
That's the big difference for me. I won't mod the engine on any scooter. I want to keep the factory reliability intact. Somehow a 200cc top end on a 125cc bottom end doesn't sound that reliable. I blew up several 50cc 2 stroke moped engines by putting an 80cc top end on them. The bottom end couldn't handle it. It seems like Genuine already may have pushed it a bit too far with the Buddy 170i.

I have hot rodded a lot of cars, and gotten a lot more power out of them. But beefier parts are available for car engines. Virtually every part in a car engine can be replaced with an aftermarket part that is a lot stronger than stock. And if you get a lot more power out of the engine, you are also going to have to have a transmission and rear end that will handle it. For cars they are available.

Most of the reason I have never modified bikes for more power is because you have to run that extra power through a stock bottom end, transmission, and final drive. They don't make aftermarket parts to beef those up. I actually cracked the cases at the crank bearings on one moped engine. They were not strong enough to handle 3 times the power.
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 03:06 PM   #69
longhaul747 OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: Bothell, WA
Oddometer: 604
I double checked the specifications and it does have a rear disc brake. Also its fuel injection witch would add a premium over a carberated scooter. Probably about $500 for the FI would be my guess.

Its probably is what is price wise and more displacement and fuel injection add a premium. It comes in around the same price as the Japanese competitors but supposedly adds a bit more stuff. Genuine does loose a few points for not being as well distributed at least in some markets however if its built in Taiwan that gets some of those lost points back.

I would be pretty happy with $3,399 MSRP plus tax and license and doc fee but any of the other stuff just makes it to much money. I will have to strut my stuff when I see in person. Probably should be seeing in on Tuesday or Wednesday.
longhaul747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 07:32 PM   #70
JerryH
Banned
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 5,069
It should be a great around town scooter, and I love the matte black. Nothing under 250cc is really going to be any good on the highway. SYM's parts problem is well known, but I haven't heard much bad about Genuine. Still it bothers me a bit that I can't just go to cheapcycleparts.com and order parts for it. I can get all the parts I want for my Stella. Most of them are the same as vintage Vespa parts. LML makes pretty much all the parts for the Stella and P series Vespa.
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 09:26 PM   #71
AMAC1680
Studly Adventurer
 
AMAC1680's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Jacksonville Fl/Mantoloking NJ
Oddometer: 610
Today was the day.

I was able to ride the Hooligan followed by a Buddy 170i. the hooligan is not by any means a "large scooter". It's the same size as most 150s. Seat height is a tad higher than many. This was anew scoot so I didn't beat it up. Acceleration was brisk and it pulled hard up until 50 then the power started to level off. I didn't push it past 55 (GPS) but would think it will do in the low 60s.

The ride was firm, firmer than the buddy and handling was good, fit land finish were good not exceptional. I'm not a fan of matte finishes and this one didn't change that. Matte black over white plastic is a a bad combo.

To be honest other than seating position and slightly smaller wheels I felt little difference. Power and ride were about the same as the Hooligan and IMO they only differ cosmetically. The Hooligan has about 35lbs on the buddy and that may also effect speed a tad.

Oh the Buddy didn't overheat even though we have heard Jerry talk of that "well known" problem over and over lol.

I have a real issue with commitment to the product. Aside from the Stella and Buddy the other Genuine offerings have fallen short for varying reasons. The Roughhouse and the Blur have struggled to sell and have gotten little help from Genuine. If the SYM dealer network bothers you so should Genuine. Thin is a reasonable way to put it.

All in all I like the Hooligan but I question how this scoot will sell. At somewhere around 4000.00 OTD at the moment. it competes with many faster, smoother options.

Time will tell .

Be Big,
AMAC
__________________
"We live in a world designed for stupid and we have lawyers to help them"
www.SEGS4VETS.org
Kymco DT-300i
SYM RV200 EVO
Lance "Cali Classic" 125
AMAC1680 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 09:58 PM   #72
longhaul747 OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: Bothell, WA
Oddometer: 604
Thanks for the ride review and reporting your findings.

Seems to me its kind of ho hum. Not really good and exciting but not all bad either.
longhaul747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2014, 10:06 PM   #73
JerryH
Banned
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 5,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMAC1680 View Post
Today was the day.

I was able to ride the Hooligan followed by a Buddy 170i. the hooligan is not by any means a "large scooter". It's the same size as most 150s. Seat height is a tad higher than many. This was anew scoot so I didn't beat it up. Acceleration was brisk and it pulled hard up until 50 then the power started to level off. I didn't push it past 55 (GPS) but would think it will do in the low 60s.

The ride was firm, firmer than the buddy and handling was good, fit land finish were good not exceptional. I'm not a fan of matte finishes and this one didn't change that. Matte black over white plastic is a a bad combo.

To be honest other than seating position and slightly smaller wheels I felt little difference. Power and ride were about the same as the Hooligan and IMO they only differ cosmetically. The Hooligan has about 35lbs on the buddy and that may also effect speed a tad.

Oh the Buddy didn't overheat even though we have heard Jerry talk of that "well known" problem over and over lol.

I have a real issue with commitment to the product. Aside from the Stella and Buddy the other Genuine offerings have fallen short for varying reasons. The Roughhouse and the Blur have struggled to sell and have gotten little help from Genuine. If the SYM dealer network bothers you so should Genuine. Thin is a reasonable way to put it.

All in all I like the Hooligan but I question how this scoot will sell. At somewhere around 4000.00 OTD at the moment. it competes with many faster, smoother options.

Time will tell .

Be Big,
AMAC
The original Buddy 170i's overheating problem was kind of like the fuel pump issue on the '09 Zuma 125. It is well documented, but not all of them did it. Supposedly they recalibrated something that was supposed to fix it. The computer would retard then timing when it got too hot, making it run like crap. There was a specific trouble code for overheating. Just Google Buddy 170i overheating, you will find several references to it. Remember it is a 170cc top end on a 125cc bottom end.

The Hooligan only goes into the 60s? With 170cc? The Zuma 125 will hit 60. The Hooligan should do at least 75. It has the same size engine as the HD200, and has FI where the HD has a carb.
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2014, 12:12 AM   #74
brianwheelies
Iron toocus
 
brianwheelies's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Oddometer: 3,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
The original Buddy 170i's overheating problem was kind of like the fuel pump issue on the '09 Zuma 125. It is well documented, but not all of them did it. Supposedly they recalibrated something that was supposed to fix it. The computer would retard then timing when it got too hot, making it run like crap. There was a specific trouble code for overheating. Just Google Buddy 170i overheating, you will find several references to it. Remember it is a 170cc top end on a 125cc bottom end.

The Hooligan only goes into the 60s? With 170cc? The Zuma 125 will hit 60. The Hooligan should do at least 75. It has the same size engine as the HD200, and has FI where the HD has a carb.
Hooligan is air cooled and not going to match the performance of the HD200 with water cooled engine of similar displacement.

The Zuma 125 is a 55mph top speed(actual speed in stock form) scoot.

The 170i Buddy would go into limp mode when being abused. This is not a bad thing, saving an engine from an abusive throttle hand.

brianwheelies screwed with this post 05-19-2014 at 08:57 AM Reason: auto correction mistakes
brianwheelies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2014, 05:01 AM   #75
AMAC1680
Studly Adventurer
 
AMAC1680's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Jacksonville Fl/Mantoloking NJ
Oddometer: 610
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
The original Buddy 170i's overheating problem was kind of like the fuel pump issue on the '09 Zuma 125. It is well documented, but not all of them did it. Supposedly they recalibrated something that was supposed to fix it. The computer would retard then timing when it got too hot, making it run like crap. There was a specific trouble code for overheating. Just Google Buddy 170i overheating, you will find several references to it. Remember it is a 170cc top end on a 125cc bottom end.

The Hooligan only goes into the 60s? With 170cc? The Zuma 125 will hit 60. The Hooligan should do at least 75. It has the same size engine as the HD200, and has FI where the HD has a carb.
First I googled the buddy issue and the well documented problem was a couple of post on a few forums by the same people. What I found from that google search was a ton of happy campers and a few with problems.

Based on that I'm shocked you still have a Zuma as now I've heard they have a known issue.....lol you are a funny man.

As I said it was a new scoot and I didn't push it to top end. My guess would be mid 60s. Air cooled, 169cc, 280lbs. I don't see 75 out of it. Even Genuine won't come close to making that claim.

Its a nice scooter, very nice I just can't make it work for the money, too many other choices. In an earlier post I mentioned the Lance Cabo at 1100.00 less. If it's all about how fast might as well save 1100.00. That said the little things, controls , gauges etc are far and away better on the Hooligan. So is the underseat storage.

Dealer network and the participation of those that are there worry me a bit.

Be Big,
AMAC
__________________
"We live in a world designed for stupid and we have lawyers to help them"
www.SEGS4VETS.org
Kymco DT-300i
SYM RV200 EVO
Lance "Cali Classic" 125
AMAC1680 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014