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Old 05-18-2014, 10:20 AM   #76
JerryH
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That's the big difference for me. I won't mod the engine on any scooter. I want to keep the factory reliability intact. Somehow a 200cc top end on a 125cc bottom end doesn't sound that reliable. I blew up several 50cc 2 stroke moped engines by putting an 80cc top end on them. The bottom end couldn't handle it. It seems like Genuine already may have pushed it a bit too far with the Buddy 170i.

I have hot rodded a lot of cars, and gotten a lot more power out of them. But beefier parts are available for car engines. Virtually every part in a car engine can be replaced with an aftermarket part that is a lot stronger than stock. And if you get a lot more power out of the engine, you are also going to have to have a transmission and rear end that will handle it. For cars they are available.

Most of the reason I have never modified bikes for more power is because you have to run that extra power through a stock bottom end, transmission, and final drive. They don't make aftermarket parts to beef those up. I actually cracked the cases at the crank bearings on one moped engine. They were not strong enough to handle 3 times the power.
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Old 05-18-2014, 02:06 PM   #77
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I double checked the specifications and it does have a rear disc brake. Also its fuel injection witch would add a premium over a carberated scooter. Probably about $500 for the FI would be my guess.

Its probably is what is price wise and more displacement and fuel injection add a premium. It comes in around the same price as the Japanese competitors but supposedly adds a bit more stuff. Genuine does loose a few points for not being as well distributed at least in some markets however if its built in Taiwan that gets some of those lost points back.

I would be pretty happy with $3,399 MSRP plus tax and license and doc fee but any of the other stuff just makes it to much money. I will have to strut my stuff when I see in person. Probably should be seeing in on Tuesday or Wednesday.
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Old 05-18-2014, 02:34 PM   #78
Dabears
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I hope we don't condemn this thing before anyone gets to ride or buy one. I suspect the lack of buzz is mainly to do with it only now starting to appear in dealers this week.

Known bikes like the Yamaha SR400 have generated thousands of posts, but remember, it's been around for 35 years, so people have had decades of exposure.

Plus, the flat paint Hooligan is not going to draw the crowd looking for 'cute'. It is much more for the Ruckus & Zuma fans. Whether it works for any of us is TBD, but I look forward to those who get to try one and report back.

On a side note it appears my local Vespa/Genuine dealer is only carrying the smaller Genuine products (125cc and below). I wonder if they are trying to avoid cheaper alternatives to their Vespa line in the 150cc and up class (may be why they have no SYMs over 100cc as well?).
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Old 05-18-2014, 06:32 PM   #79
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It should be a great around town scooter, and I love the matte black. Nothing under 250cc is really going to be any good on the highway. SYM's parts problem is well known, but I haven't heard much bad about Genuine. Still it bothers me a bit that I can't just go to cheapcycleparts.com and order parts for it. I can get all the parts I want for my Stella. Most of them are the same as vintage Vespa parts. LML makes pretty much all the parts for the Stella and P series Vespa.
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:26 PM   #80
AMAC1680
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Today was the day.

I was able to ride the Hooligan followed by a Buddy 170i. the hooligan is not by any means a "large scooter". It's the same size as most 150s. Seat height is a tad higher than many. This was anew scoot so I didn't beat it up. Acceleration was brisk and it pulled hard up until 50 then the power started to level off. I didn't push it past 55 (GPS) but would think it will do in the low 60s.

The ride was firm, firmer than the buddy and handling was good, fit land finish were good not exceptional. I'm not a fan of matte finishes and this one didn't change that. Matte black over white plastic is a a bad combo.

To be honest other than seating position and slightly smaller wheels I felt little difference. Power and ride were about the same as the Hooligan and IMO they only differ cosmetically. The Hooligan has about 35lbs on the buddy and that may also effect speed a tad.

Oh the Buddy didn't overheat even though we have heard Jerry talk of that "well known" problem over and over lol.

I have a real issue with commitment to the product. Aside from the Stella and Buddy the other Genuine offerings have fallen short for varying reasons. The Roughhouse and the Blur have struggled to sell and have gotten little help from Genuine. If the SYM dealer network bothers you so should Genuine. Thin is a reasonable way to put it.

All in all I like the Hooligan but I question how this scoot will sell. At somewhere around 4000.00 OTD at the moment. it competes with many faster, smoother options.

Time will tell .

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Old 05-18-2014, 08:58 PM   #81
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Thanks for the ride review and reporting your findings.

Seems to me its kind of ho hum. Not really good and exciting but not all bad either.
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Old 05-18-2014, 09:06 PM   #82
JerryH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMAC1680 View Post
Today was the day.

I was able to ride the Hooligan followed by a Buddy 170i. the hooligan is not by any means a "large scooter". It's the same size as most 150s. Seat height is a tad higher than many. This was anew scoot so I didn't beat it up. Acceleration was brisk and it pulled hard up until 50 then the power started to level off. I didn't push it past 55 (GPS) but would think it will do in the low 60s.

The ride was firm, firmer than the buddy and handling was good, fit land finish were good not exceptional. I'm not a fan of matte finishes and this one didn't change that. Matte black over white plastic is a a bad combo.

To be honest other than seating position and slightly smaller wheels I felt little difference. Power and ride were about the same as the Hooligan and IMO they only differ cosmetically. The Hooligan has about 35lbs on the buddy and that may also effect speed a tad.

Oh the Buddy didn't overheat even though we have heard Jerry talk of that "well known" problem over and over lol.

I have a real issue with commitment to the product. Aside from the Stella and Buddy the other Genuine offerings have fallen short for varying reasons. The Roughhouse and the Blur have struggled to sell and have gotten little help from Genuine. If the SYM dealer network bothers you so should Genuine. Thin is a reasonable way to put it.

All in all I like the Hooligan but I question how this scoot will sell. At somewhere around 4000.00 OTD at the moment. it competes with many faster, smoother options.

Time will tell .

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The original Buddy 170i's overheating problem was kind of like the fuel pump issue on the '09 Zuma 125. It is well documented, but not all of them did it. Supposedly they recalibrated something that was supposed to fix it. The computer would retard then timing when it got too hot, making it run like crap. There was a specific trouble code for overheating. Just Google Buddy 170i overheating, you will find several references to it. Remember it is a 170cc top end on a 125cc bottom end.

The Hooligan only goes into the 60s? With 170cc? The Zuma 125 will hit 60. The Hooligan should do at least 75. It has the same size engine as the HD200, and has FI where the HD has a carb.
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Old 05-18-2014, 11:12 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
The original Buddy 170i's overheating problem was kind of like the fuel pump issue on the '09 Zuma 125. It is well documented, but not all of them did it. Supposedly they recalibrated something that was supposed to fix it. The computer would retard then timing when it got too hot, making it run like crap. There was a specific trouble code for overheating. Just Google Buddy 170i overheating, you will find several references to it. Remember it is a 170cc top end on a 125cc bottom end.

The Hooligan only goes into the 60s? With 170cc? The Zuma 125 will hit 60. The Hooligan should do at least 75. It has the same size engine as the HD200, and has FI where the HD has a carb.
Hooligan is air cooled and not going to match the performance of the HD200 with water cooled engine of similar displacement.

The Zuma 125 is a 55mph top speed(actual speed in stock form) scoot.

The 170i Buddy would go into limp mode when being abused. This is not a bad thing, saving an engine from an abusive throttle hand.

brianwheelies screwed with this post 05-19-2014 at 07:57 AM Reason: auto correction mistakes
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:01 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
The original Buddy 170i's overheating problem was kind of like the fuel pump issue on the '09 Zuma 125. It is well documented, but not all of them did it. Supposedly they recalibrated something that was supposed to fix it. The computer would retard then timing when it got too hot, making it run like crap. There was a specific trouble code for overheating. Just Google Buddy 170i overheating, you will find several references to it. Remember it is a 170cc top end on a 125cc bottom end.

The Hooligan only goes into the 60s? With 170cc? The Zuma 125 will hit 60. The Hooligan should do at least 75. It has the same size engine as the HD200, and has FI where the HD has a carb.
First I googled the buddy issue and the well documented problem was a couple of post on a few forums by the same people. What I found from that google search was a ton of happy campers and a few with problems.

Based on that I'm shocked you still have a Zuma as now I've heard they have a known issue.....lol you are a funny man.

As I said it was a new scoot and I didn't push it to top end. My guess would be mid 60s. Air cooled, 169cc, 280lbs. I don't see 75 out of it. Even Genuine won't come close to making that claim.

Its a nice scooter, very nice I just can't make it work for the money, too many other choices. In an earlier post I mentioned the Lance Cabo at 1100.00 less. If it's all about how fast might as well save 1100.00. That said the little things, controls , gauges etc are far and away better on the Hooligan. So is the underseat storage.

Dealer network and the participation of those that are there worry me a bit.

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Old 05-19-2014, 04:08 AM   #85
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So what I'm hearing is that the Hooligan is essentially a 4,000 Buddy 170i with a nicer (to me) look. If a purchase is driven purely on the look, then the Hooligan is kind of where it's at.

The SYM will run 72 mph. They can be found used for $2k (not common, but they do pop up).

Neither model sets the benchmark for dealer/distributor/parts support.

This is not a hard equation for me. I think I'd take my chances on the SYM and get the benefit of water cooling- even having to put up with the carb. Then just order parts through Ootyscooters.com when issues came up.
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Old 05-19-2014, 05:02 AM   #86
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Quote:
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So what I'm hearing is that the Hooligan is essentially a 4,000 Buddy 170i with a nicer (to me) look. If a purchase is driven purely on the look, then the Hooligan is kind of where it's at.

The SYM will run 72 mph. They can be found used for $2k (not common, but they do pop up).

Neither model sets the benchmark for dealer/distributor/parts support.

This is not a hard equation for me. I think I'd take my chances on the SYM and get the benefit of water cooling- even having to put up with the carb. Then just order parts through Ootyscooters.com when issues came up.
I like your "to me" comment because that's all my impressions are. One mans opinion. I recently bought a Kymco DT300 after years of hearing about the nasty seating possition. When I finaly rode one I found it fit me and its a great ride....for me.

It's no secret I'm a SYM fan. I have two and never a issue. I've only needed a few lights and the gauges for the Cali and got them withing 10 days. The motors are rock soild the dealer network is not, yet.

There is no comparison between the power of the RV200 and the Hooligan. As compitant as the hooligan is the SYM will beat it from the line to top end and I'd bet the farm on that.

Looks are a personal thing and I made peace with the fact at 55 years old I'm not the target demo for these scoots. Burgman maybe but not small scoots with that "rat" look. That's part of what I worry about with the genuine scoots.

Most of their dealers share space with other brands and don't get the same floor space. You'll see a couple of buddies, a Stella or two and that's it. The rest of the store is full of Kymcos , SYM etal.

I'll take a beating for this but they hang their hat on the Stella , but those that love that look are becoming fewer. It's also an "almost vespa" and just as my Toyota is not a Lexus the Stella is not a Vespa.

So they try to build market with scoots like the Blur, roughouse , rattler but haven't done well at all. Now add the hooligan. I travel and go to every scoot shop I can find and a blur is almost like a unicorn. Can't sell what's not on the floor.

For long term viability you need to have a reasonable market share of a relatively small market and IMO I don't see that from genuine right now.

The Hoooligan could be the scoot that helps build that place. Time will tell.

Again "just me"

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Old 05-19-2014, 04:03 PM   #87
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I seriously doubt the Hooligan will be a big money maker for Genuine, especially at that price. It does not have the performance to justify the price. People expect a 170 to have significantly more power and speed than a 125. Other than it's parts availability problem (real or perceived), the HD200 is the best deal in that displacement range. Here you can get a significant discount on the HD200. All the Hooligan has is that Mad Max look, which I do like.

I did not know the Zuma 125 had a known issue when I bought my 2012. I thought the fuel pump issue only affected the '09 models, and that Yamaha fixed it. Only now am I hearing it can affect later models as well.

I have a Stella because I wanted a 2 stroke manual shift scooter with a vintage look. The Stella gives you not only the look, but also the vintage design, so you get the same experience as riding a real vintage scooter. The Royal Enfield does the same thing. It is nice that most vintage Vespa parts fit the Stella, making parts easy to get. But I wouldn't care what it looked like, as long as it was vintage. A brand new Lambretta, Cushman, Salsbury, or Heinkel would suit me just fine.

And there is a lot less difference in a Toyota and a Lexus than you might thing. They share a lot of parts. The Toyota is the better deal, it is just as reliable, costs less, and actually depreciates slower than the Lexus.
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:30 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
I seriously doubt the Hooligan will be a big money maker for Genuine, especially at that price. It does not have the performance to justify the price. People expect a 170 to have significantly more power and speed than a 125. Other than it's parts availability problem (real or perceived), the HD200 is the best deal in that displacement range. Here you can get a significant discount on the HD200. All the Hooligan has is that Mad Max look, which I do like.

I did not know the Zuma 125 had a known issue when I bought my 2012. I thought the fuel pump issue only affected the '09 models, and that Yamaha fixed it. Only now am I hearing it can affect later models as well.

I have a Stella because I wanted a 2 stroke manual shift scooter with a vintage look. The Stella gives you not only the look, but also the vintage design, so you get the same experience as riding a real vintage scooter. The Royal Enfield does the same thing. It is nice that most vintage Vespa parts fit the Stella, making parts easy to get. But I wouldn't care what it looked like, as long as it was vintage. A brand new Lambretta, Cushman, Salsbury, or Heinkel would suit me just fine.

And there is a lot less difference in a Toyota and a Lexus than you might thing. They share a lot of parts. The Toyota is the better deal, it is just as reliable, costs less, and actually depreciates slower than the Lexus.
Just busting some balls my friend !
I personally love the Stella and I'm not about to argue with the many that love them, they are one of a kind here.

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Old 05-19-2014, 10:18 PM   #89
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I tell you never over estimate the power of water cooling. This is in regards to the Sym HD200. Just finished the day riding around on my Elite 110. The Elite 110 just never ceases to amaze me. Despite its minimal 110cc displacement the scooter seriously moves and to be honest it feels quicker then many larger displacement air cooled motors. The Elite 110 is quicker then the Zuma 125 and the SportCity 125/Typhoon 125 when I had those Italian scoots. Dare I say it the Elite 110 would likely even blow the doors off the Fly 150 3V off the line and up until the Elite 110 bumps off its rev limiter.

The air cooled scooters despite being larger displacement only had the advantage of more torque. So they performed a little better climbing hills. The 110cc mill in the Elite 110 simply runs out of torque when climbing hills but even then it does surprisingly well. Also overall top speed on the Elite 110 is limited to 52 MPH to protect the engine. I am confident it could go much faster without hesitation but Honda felt it needed to limit the speed in order to protect the longevity of the motor.

My point is its very likely that when it comes to anything water cooled around the displacement of the Hooligan 170 will likely out perform the Hooligan by a large margin. This is not a deal killer necessarily but despite its size I am willing the bet the Hooligan is a bit of a disappointment at least in the quickness department. Only its brunt force torque of its larger displacement (comparing to 110-150cc water cooled scoots) will provide some benefits. I expect the Hooligan to perform very well around my area with all the hills.

No doubt Sym makes a better scooter that is more technically advanced. However I will not consider Sym one little bit at this time. Hopefully that will change for the better in the future with a new and improved importer.

Genuine does not even come close to matching the Japanese big 4 but compared to Sym they are light years ahead. So far I don't see any complaints about getting parts from Genuine.

I am still excited to see the Hooligan 170i in person and hopefully get a test ride. Hopefully tomorrow is that day. Still a bit reserved about buying it but with the trades it would not be that difficult. Getting kind of anxious to get rid of the Kymco's. Overall pretty good scoots but the Super 8 dumped some muffler parts and it took 5 months to get an air filter for it.
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Old 05-20-2014, 03:32 AM   #90
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There a a lot of people that will love the Hooligan. It's got cool looks and is a strong performer. Its plenty quick and well put together.

As far as the SYM being a better or more advanced scooter I don't know.
Parts for Kymco and SYM have not been an issue for me. My dealer tells me no problem getting genuine parts either.

They also pointed out that with genuine they basically need to only keeps parts for two scoots. With kymco its a long list. They also were quick to point out that You hear less complaints because there are less of them on the road.

Either way it's always good to have choices and new offerings and the Hooligan has its spot.

Enjoy the test ride!

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