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Old 05-19-2014, 06:02 AM   #76
AMAC1680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabears View Post
So what I'm hearing is that the Hooligan is essentially a 4,000 Buddy 170i with a nicer (to me) look. If a purchase is driven purely on the look, then the Hooligan is kind of where it's at.

The SYM will run 72 mph. They can be found used for $2k (not common, but they do pop up).

Neither model sets the benchmark for dealer/distributor/parts support.

This is not a hard equation for me. I think I'd take my chances on the SYM and get the benefit of water cooling- even having to put up with the carb. Then just order parts through Ootyscooters.com when issues came up.
I like your "to me" comment because that's all my impressions are. One mans opinion. I recently bought a Kymco DT300 after years of hearing about the nasty seating possition. When I finaly rode one I found it fit me and its a great ride....for me.

It's no secret I'm a SYM fan. I have two and never a issue. I've only needed a few lights and the gauges for the Cali and got them withing 10 days. The motors are rock soild the dealer network is not, yet.

There is no comparison between the power of the RV200 and the Hooligan. As compitant as the hooligan is the SYM will beat it from the line to top end and I'd bet the farm on that.

Looks are a personal thing and I made peace with the fact at 55 years old I'm not the target demo for these scoots. Burgman maybe but not small scoots with that "rat" look. That's part of what I worry about with the genuine scoots.

Most of their dealers share space with other brands and don't get the same floor space. You'll see a couple of buddies, a Stella or two and that's it. The rest of the store is full of Kymcos , SYM etal.

I'll take a beating for this but they hang their hat on the Stella , but those that love that look are becoming fewer. It's also an "almost vespa" and just as my Toyota is not a Lexus the Stella is not a Vespa.

So they try to build market with scoots like the Blur, roughouse , rattler but haven't done well at all. Now add the hooligan. I travel and go to every scoot shop I can find and a blur is almost like a unicorn. Can't sell what's not on the floor.

For long term viability you need to have a reasonable market share of a relatively small market and IMO I don't see that from genuine right now.

The Hoooligan could be the scoot that helps build that place. Time will tell.

Again "just me"

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Old 05-19-2014, 05:03 PM   #77
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I seriously doubt the Hooligan will be a big money maker for Genuine, especially at that price. It does not have the performance to justify the price. People expect a 170 to have significantly more power and speed than a 125. Other than it's parts availability problem (real or perceived), the HD200 is the best deal in that displacement range. Here you can get a significant discount on the HD200. All the Hooligan has is that Mad Max look, which I do like.

I did not know the Zuma 125 had a known issue when I bought my 2012. I thought the fuel pump issue only affected the '09 models, and that Yamaha fixed it. Only now am I hearing it can affect later models as well.

I have a Stella because I wanted a 2 stroke manual shift scooter with a vintage look. The Stella gives you not only the look, but also the vintage design, so you get the same experience as riding a real vintage scooter. The Royal Enfield does the same thing. It is nice that most vintage Vespa parts fit the Stella, making parts easy to get. But I wouldn't care what it looked like, as long as it was vintage. A brand new Lambretta, Cushman, Salsbury, or Heinkel would suit me just fine.

And there is a lot less difference in a Toyota and a Lexus than you might thing. They share a lot of parts. The Toyota is the better deal, it is just as reliable, costs less, and actually depreciates slower than the Lexus.
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:30 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
I seriously doubt the Hooligan will be a big money maker for Genuine, especially at that price. It does not have the performance to justify the price. People expect a 170 to have significantly more power and speed than a 125. Other than it's parts availability problem (real or perceived), the HD200 is the best deal in that displacement range. Here you can get a significant discount on the HD200. All the Hooligan has is that Mad Max look, which I do like.

I did not know the Zuma 125 had a known issue when I bought my 2012. I thought the fuel pump issue only affected the '09 models, and that Yamaha fixed it. Only now am I hearing it can affect later models as well.

I have a Stella because I wanted a 2 stroke manual shift scooter with a vintage look. The Stella gives you not only the look, but also the vintage design, so you get the same experience as riding a real vintage scooter. The Royal Enfield does the same thing. It is nice that most vintage Vespa parts fit the Stella, making parts easy to get. But I wouldn't care what it looked like, as long as it was vintage. A brand new Lambretta, Cushman, Salsbury, or Heinkel would suit me just fine.

And there is a lot less difference in a Toyota and a Lexus than you might thing. They share a lot of parts. The Toyota is the better deal, it is just as reliable, costs less, and actually depreciates slower than the Lexus.
Just busting some balls my friend !
I personally love the Stella and I'm not about to argue with the many that love them, they are one of a kind here.

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Old 05-19-2014, 11:18 PM   #79
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I tell you never over estimate the power of water cooling. This is in regards to the Sym HD200. Just finished the day riding around on my Elite 110. The Elite 110 just never ceases to amaze me. Despite its minimal 110cc displacement the scooter seriously moves and to be honest it feels quicker then many larger displacement air cooled motors. The Elite 110 is quicker then the Zuma 125 and the SportCity 125/Typhoon 125 when I had those Italian scoots. Dare I say it the Elite 110 would likely even blow the doors off the Fly 150 3V off the line and up until the Elite 110 bumps off its rev limiter.

The air cooled scooters despite being larger displacement only had the advantage of more torque. So they performed a little better climbing hills. The 110cc mill in the Elite 110 simply runs out of torque when climbing hills but even then it does surprisingly well. Also overall top speed on the Elite 110 is limited to 52 MPH to protect the engine. I am confident it could go much faster without hesitation but Honda felt it needed to limit the speed in order to protect the longevity of the motor.

My point is its very likely that when it comes to anything water cooled around the displacement of the Hooligan 170 will likely out perform the Hooligan by a large margin. This is not a deal killer necessarily but despite its size I am willing the bet the Hooligan is a bit of a disappointment at least in the quickness department. Only its brunt force torque of its larger displacement (comparing to 110-150cc water cooled scoots) will provide some benefits. I expect the Hooligan to perform very well around my area with all the hills.

No doubt Sym makes a better scooter that is more technically advanced. However I will not consider Sym one little bit at this time. Hopefully that will change for the better in the future with a new and improved importer.

Genuine does not even come close to matching the Japanese big 4 but compared to Sym they are light years ahead. So far I don't see any complaints about getting parts from Genuine.

I am still excited to see the Hooligan 170i in person and hopefully get a test ride. Hopefully tomorrow is that day. Still a bit reserved about buying it but with the trades it would not be that difficult. Getting kind of anxious to get rid of the Kymco's. Overall pretty good scoots but the Super 8 dumped some muffler parts and it took 5 months to get an air filter for it.
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Old 05-20-2014, 04:32 AM   #80
AMAC1680
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There a a lot of people that will love the Hooligan. It's got cool looks and is a strong performer. Its plenty quick and well put together.

As far as the SYM being a better or more advanced scooter I don't know.
Parts for Kymco and SYM have not been an issue for me. My dealer tells me no problem getting genuine parts either.

They also pointed out that with genuine they basically need to only keeps parts for two scoots. With kymco its a long list. They also were quick to point out that You hear less complaints because there are less of them on the road.

Either way it's always good to have choices and new offerings and the Hooligan has its spot.

Enjoy the test ride!

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Old 05-20-2014, 10:23 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longhaul747 View Post
I tell you never over estimate the power of water cooling. This is in regards to the Sym HD200. Just finished the day riding around on my Elite 110. The Elite 110 just never ceases to amaze me. Despite its minimal 110cc displacement the scooter seriously moves and to be honest it feels quicker then many larger displacement air cooled motors. The Elite 110 is quicker then the Zuma 125 and the SportCity 125/Typhoon 125 when I had those Italian scoots. Dare I say it the Elite 110 would likely even blow the doors off the Fly 150 3V off the line and up until the Elite 110 bumps off its rev limiter.

The air cooled scooters despite being larger displacement only had the advantage of more torque. So they performed a little better climbing hills. The 110cc mill in the Elite 110 simply runs out of torque when climbing hills but even then it does surprisingly well. Also overall top speed on the Elite 110 is limited to 52 MPH to protect the engine. I am confident it could go much faster without hesitation but Honda felt it needed to limit the speed in order to protect the longevity of the motor.

My point is its very likely that when it comes to anything water cooled around the displacement of the Hooligan 170 will likely out perform the Hooligan by a large margin. This is not a deal killer necessarily but despite its size I am willing the bet the Hooligan is a bit of a disappointment at least in the quickness department. Only its brunt force torque of its larger displacement (comparing to 110-150cc water cooled scoots) will provide some benefits. I expect the Hooligan to perform very well around my area with all the hills.



I am still excited to see the Hooligan 170i in person and hopefully get a test ride. Hopefully tomorrow is that day. Still a bit reserved about buying it but with the trades it would not be that difficult. Getting kind of anxious to get rid of the Kymco's. Overall pretty good scoots but the Super 8 dumped some muffler parts and it took 5 months to get an air filter for it.
Yes the Elite is just too elite!

No on the hooligan better to go with the hd200..but really the new pcx150 is the bomb
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Old 05-20-2014, 11:54 AM   #82
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Yes the Elite is just too elite!

No on the hooligan better to go with the hd200..but really the new pcx150 is the bomb
Yeah the Elite is great. So much for tech improving things. The engine in the Elite is a very conventional 2 valve design with water cooling. Not much science in it but it sure moves good. On paper its about 10 MPG short of my PCX but for some reason it just feels more frugal. I can tour all over Seattle and then some and still have a 1/4 tank of gas left.

Today I will be in the area of the Genuine dealer. Hopefully they got it in. Logic would say yes they did get it in but sense the use the 3rd party warehouse and assembler method they may very likely not have it.

The game plan if I decide to purchase it is to trade the Super 8 150 and the Agility 125 in and pay cash for the difference. Late last year I had a feeling I would be making some changes this year so I padded the scooter fund. Always feels better paying cash for these things.
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Old 05-20-2014, 03:11 PM   #83
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Nope no Hooligan today. Have not even arrived at the warehouse yet!

Not a very good distribution model unfortunately its fairly common it seems. It took over a month before all the dealers had the new 2014 DL1000 in stock.

Just have to wait it out!
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Old 05-20-2014, 04:15 PM   #84
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It took a year before dealers had the Suzuki GW250 in stock.
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Old 05-20-2014, 05:14 PM   #85
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It took a year before dealers had the Suzuki GW250 in stock.
Yeah that is correct. In fact for a while it looked like the GW250 was canceled but then all of a sudden they started showing up. The GW250 took so long because of emissions from what I heard. Some delays in the approval process and maybe a DOT issue or 2 as well.

I might be wrong but the GW250 is still not certified for sale in California. Only the other 49 states unless this recently changed.

It would be interesting to learn just what goes on during the certification process. I have a GW250 and as far as I can tell its as clean burning as they get. No smell or soot from the exhaust. Even tried a piece of tissue over the exhaust pipe for a minute or so and no stains from the exhaust on it. Did not even smell of exhaust yet. I am sure if I left it there longer it would have stained and smelled but from what I could see its a really clean burning motor.

Its just funny how some bikes that are CARB approved actually burn much dirtier and the exhaust is more smelly yet one that seems much cleaner would not be.

In the Hooligan 170's case its simply slow and inefficient shipping and perhaps some dealers get priority. Also some dealers use a 3rd party warehouse and assembly company witch further slows the process down.

I asked one of the dealers I know why they would use a 3rd party warehouse and assembler? Usually in the business world anything you can do in house will save you money. The dealer simply stated that the service department charges the sales department the full labor rate. So its cheaper to use the 3rd party warehouse and assembler. It sounds like a whole lot of caca to me and likely some sort of voodoo economics taking place at the dealerships. If I owned a dealership I would charge the sales department the "REAL" labor rate and save my customers some money and get the bikes sooner.

As it is by default my Genuine dealer said the assembly fee is $150. This simply covers the cost of the 3rd party warehouse putting the bike together. Because they use the 3rd party company they want that fee very badly. If it was done in house and billed at the labor rate the employee makes (say $15) and it takes 5 hours that would only be $75. I doubt it would take an experienced mechanic 5 hours to set up. Probably takes longer to get it out of the crate then to get it ready for sale. Probably more like 2 hours for most bikes.

Its not like the warehouse does a fantastic job. They still have to go through them because they find mistakes all the time. For what the dealer paid the mechanic to inspect the work they could have just done it themselves and saved the headache and expense.

I think the main reason is the manufacture supplies the warehouse. The dealer simply pulls from the warehouse inventory as needed. That way they pay less flooring cost. The dealer does not own it until it gets delivered by the warehouse. Its all okay because the customer pays for it anyway!
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Old 05-20-2014, 07:49 PM   #86
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Info: The GW250 is CARB-approved and is for sale in California dealerships.
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Old 05-20-2014, 08:01 PM   #87
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Info: The GW250 is CARB-approved and is for sale in California dealerships.
Thanks for the info. I heard it was one of many reasons for the delay but I can't remember if it was ever sorted. Some manufactures don't bother and don't offer for sale that particular bike in California.

Probably only Suzuki knows the true reasons for the delay and anything else on the internet is just theory.
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Old 05-27-2014, 04:16 PM   #88
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Here is a little update just to keep the thread going.....

For some reason the Genuine dealers in my area are having a hard time getting the Hooligan 170i in. As of Saturday the warehouse has not even received them yet.

After noticing other dealers around the country started getting them as far back as 2 weeks ago they said they would give Genuine a call today. Its probably not going to change anything but I did voice my displeasure to the selling dealer in a professional manor.

For some reason I am starting to loose a bit of interest now. Hopefully seeing it in person will renew my interest.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:52 PM   #89
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My dealer doesn't have any either. Don't know if they ordered any. They've really boosted their vespa inventory lately, and have no Genuine or SYM over 125cc.
The Hooligan I test rode sold and my dealer doesn't know when the next one will be in.

Other than that they are stocked to the rafters with full line Kymco, SYM/Lance and Genuine ummm except a hooligan at the moment.....

BTW this is just one location. See the scoot you love in the color you hate. No worries its in stock at one of the other stores. This place sells scooters.


Kymco Downtown and Myroad right SYM Citycom and HD right.
(gt300i not pictured but in stock)


Lance Cali Classic right , PCH left.


Lance Cabos


Kymco Super 8, Agility etc.


Genuine Stella, Buddy, Roughhouse...

But nary another Hoooligan in sight!
or a Blur for that matter.

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AMAC
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:22 PM   #90
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My dealer doesn't have any either. Don't know if they ordered any. They've really boosted their vespa inventory lately, and have no Genuine or SYM over 125cc.
Sort of sounds like Genuine is pulling a Grom with the Hooligan and keeping the supply low. Many dealers got them but many did not. My dealer got a bulk email that the Hooligan's have shipped and they ordered 4 or at least 4 are coming to the warehouse. That was a few weeks ago though so for some reason the actual order for my dealer and others did not appear to actually ship.

They seem a bit PO'ed because they are supposedly one of the higher priority dealers because they do pretty good volume. They never had an issue with Genuine before.

I am sure its probably coming and its not like motorcycles have a real release date.
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