02 honda xr650r kickstart binding not spinning with video

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by cbsean, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU3mJMvdi9g
    Video

    parts fiche
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    02 honda xr650r

    wide view
    [​IMG]

    i try to kick start the engine an am experiencing binding that stops the kick starter from turning the engine over. after some research I found that the binding is occurring between the 36/24 tooth gear connected to the kick starter and the 35-tooth idler gear that connects the kick starter's momentum across to the clutch basket.
    close up
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    the problem is that the teeth of the 24/36-tooth gear don't marry with the 35-tooth idler pinion. the result of this miscarriage is binding.
    bad engagement
    [​IMG]
    all of the pieces are present and installed properly and all of the bearings work as they should.
    all of the parts have been ordered from Honda and everything fits flush and as it should. i am at a total loss for what can be causing this mismatch
    any ideas, suggestions or theories..?
    #1
  2. mcma111

    mcma111 Long timer

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    I don't know XRR's but I do know XR600's. It looks like your inner idler gear may be missing it's bushing thus letting it get out of alignment. Time to pull it apart and check.
    #2
  3. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    thanks mcma111, there is no play in any of the bearings connecting the kick start shaft, the following idler or the clutch basket. the only thing i could think of is that one of the gears has enough teeth but its diameter is too small to engage the idler gear. the only way i could test this theory is to compare the gears measurements against the same parts off a working bike.

    arg.
    #3
  4. mcma111

    mcma111 Long timer

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    You need to pull the clutch basket and check the double gear behind it and it's bushing. Make sure the shaft doesn't have any side play. Ya gotta dig deeper.
    #4
  5. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    ok you're saying to check for wear, damage or play in parts #4 and 5.

    i am not afraid to do anything on this machine but i don't believe there us anything suspicious about those parts and am pretty sure they were both new parts recently order.

    i will double check this and reply with my findings.
    #5
  6. kenny61

    kenny61 Crazy Idiot

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    I believe he is saying check part # 6, which I agree with. (liek that matters:lol3)
    #6
  7. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    yes, i made a mistake. i plan to check part #6, the bushing.
    #7
  8. mcma111

    mcma111 Long timer

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    Well ???
    #8
  9. RideFreak

    RideFreak Torque Junkie

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    I just watched that vid. The reason you have that gap between the pair of gears is the cover isn't installed and the kickstart shaft has tilted downward creating more of a gap. The cover is the centering device for the shaft without it that shaft just wallows around. The gap between the gears isn't going to cause binding.
    #9
  10. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    #10
  11. Homerb

    Homerb Been here awhile

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    I had the same problem on my XL600. Turned out the idler gear was in backwards, and was binding on the back of the clutch basket. I dont know if you can fit the XR650R idler gear backwards, but its worth a look. Was the kickstarter gear dismantled? Maybe that gear is on backwards.
    #11
  12. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    interesting suggestion Homerb. i will look at that tomorrow. i didn't understand something about the kickstarter.

    it looks as though the finger (tap, tang or whatever the raised piece of metal in part #2) faces forward (clockwise) but the kicking of the kickstarter causes the tinger to be spun backwards (counter-clockwise).

    kicking the starter spins the gear counterclockwise but the finger wants to engage the gear clockwise. everything is either key or for some other reasons only fits in one way. i couldn't see how anything could go together backwards.
    #12
  13. RideFreak

    RideFreak Torque Junkie

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    It's not the gear spacing, are you ready for this......


    your clutch bushining is galled, it's supposed to turn freely (independently) inside the clutch hub and on the main shaft but up through 2002 honda didn't design the bushing with enough oil film clearance. When idling the bike in gear with the clutch pulled in it'd boil off the oil and gall between the bushing and the clutch basket. Honda had a recall about it back on '02~'03, apparently your XRR never had it done.


    You'll probably have to drive the bushing out of the basket with a drift. Some folks get lucky and polish up the inside area of the basket and replace the bushing with a new one. Often it requires replacement of the basket.
    #13
  14. DocAxeYarYar

    DocAxeYarYar RideDualSport.com

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    Sorry to hear of the kick start troubles....

    If it turns out to be galled clutch bushing, hopefully your clutch basket is usable. Its very easy to break the clutch basket without the proper tool hold it (I know because I broke mine.....).

    Turns out finding a good clutch basket was really hard. After a lot of poking around on the Internet, and numerous emails to folks parting out XRRs I found one. The Internet OEM bike parts dealers like BikeBandit had them on BO for unspecified amount of time....


    Good luck let us know how it turns out!
    #14
  15. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    Thanks for the response Poppy.

    RideFreak, here is the clutch assembly. Are you referring to part #3 when you say "clutch bushing"? I should drive out part #3 and replace it with a new part? How will I be able to tell if the clutch hub is usable or needs replacement?

    Docaxeyaryar, if the clutch basket needs replacement, can i buy an aftermarket clutch basket?
    [​IMG]
    #15
  16. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    RideFreak, i found an article describing what you said.
    http://www.xr650r.us/issues/13.shtml

    I forgot that the bearing on the main shaft was spun and did require replacement. Anyways, I wanted to know what is the best way to determine which parts need replacement?

    I will replace the bushing, but how do i know if i need to replace the main shaft or the clutch basket?
    #16
  17. RideFreak

    RideFreak Torque Junkie

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    The spun brg on the main shaft was your first clue. I doubt the main shaft is bad, typically the wear occurs in the inside of the basket where the bushing rides. The basket should be replaced, there really isn't a wear limit that I'm aware of for this issue. But all else being good you don't have allot to loose trying to get it to work except possibly sacrificing the new bushing. The part you want to drive out is #3

    I'd try and get the bushing out, ideally using a press but most of us don't have one of those so I'd take a socket who's OD is slightly smaller than the bushings OD and use that with a sacrificial extension that I hit with the hammer driving the bushing out the back. Once it's out, I'd order the new bushing and attempt to polish out that area on the basket. Once you get it working smooth, reassemble and Do Not sit with the bike in gear and the clutch pulled in.

    Good chance that you won't be able to salvage the basket, in that case a Hinson basket is what I'd replace it with. Only way I'd put a stocker back in was if I got it at a great deal.
    #17
  18. cbsean

    cbsean Adventurer

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    is there anyway i could check to see if the bushing or clutch basket are in need of repair? What does galling look like?

    i am doing to try sanding the parts with emery cloth then applying some moly.

    the bushing came out easily and didn't require using a press or any tools other than my hands. Is this a bad sign?

    as a side note, if i go with an aftermarket clutch basket, will the rest of my clutch parts (springs, plates) work with the aftermarket basket?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    #18
  19. RideFreak

    RideFreak Torque Junkie

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    The fact that it comes apart easily is good news. Hope I didn't send you off in the wrong direction but that is a known issue.

    There should be some evidence of the siezeure or abnormal wear. The inside of the basket looks pretty good as does the outside of the bushing, it does look like a little bit of wear down inside the basket but I would have expected worse. I was going to suggest a brake cylinder hone if the galling (damage) was on the basket. If it's on the main shaft I'd smoothen it with some emory cloth like you mentioned then follow it up with some fine sandpaper like 400 grit and try to get a decent finish, steel wool works well for a final polish. I was under the impression that the damage typically happened to the basket.

    Ether way you don't have much to loose except the cost of the bushing and the gasket. The other clutch parts should xfer into a new basket.
    #19