12GS - VSS or tapping ABS?

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by bonox, Oct 23, 2006.

  1. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <BR>
    Alright well that's good then, it's the same type of inductive or 'VR' sensor as on the 1100/1150. So if we make something for your bike, it'll work for mine. I know it may not be the exact same sensor, but if it's needed, the signal conditioning circuit will be the same.

    Tech side note: The R12 motor does not use a Hall Effect on the crank like the 1100/1150. It uses a VR sensor that triggers off the front of the crank. It makes its AC signal from the teeth of the counterbalance gear drive.

    So I had to take a look at the signal from the rear wheel sensor on my bike. I'll double check later in case they are very different from your readings. I mean, the readings from the two bikes should be close. The number of ring gear teeth per revolution may be different for the 1200, but still.

    The sensor resistance ยป130W

    I was able to make a more or less steady 100 RPM for 15 seconds or so, and with a 77in. tire circumference . . . that works out to only 7.3mph.

    At a wavering 7.3mph, the AC output wavers between 8 to 10mV.

    That'd prolly be why your meter wasn't seeing it.

    Put on a work glove and stick your index finger in the spokes and try to make 100 revs, it's tough. (Check the math if you want, I was wearing the beer goggles.)

    Next you can plug the sensor back in and stick a thin gauge needle into the sensor wire to connect it to the meter you will be using. One meter lead to one sensor wire, and the other meter lead to ground.

    Spin the back tire with the engine. You can ride around with the meter taped to the tank, or maybe turn the ABS off and drive the wheel while on the center stand. We'll see if the front or rear sensor provides the signal used for the speedometer.

    And what's your first name?

    - Jim<BR><BR>
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  2. Crilly

    Crilly Been here awhile

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    :norton I just picked the tack wire on the audiovox instead of the speed wire because I knew it would work. So with the positive negitive positive sensor it holds the same speed no matter what gear.
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  3. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    Hey there Crilly. Yes the other 'square edged' signals are available. And maybe the Audiovox cruise cannot accept a VR sensor signal directly.

    I understand the reasons you wired your control the way you did. I also am not concerned about not being able to turn off the cruise, change gears, and resume speed. Maybe I'd change my mind if I tried it.

    Plus, with the model bonox is using, an engine speed input saves the need for wiring into the clutch lever switch. At least that's how I read the instructions. The cruise senses the slight but instantaneous rpm increase the moment the clutch is disengaged any amount.

    Hey bonox, you are going to use the clutch lever switch yes? So you will have inputs from VR for road speed, and inputs from clutch and brake lever switches to trigger the 'interrupt' function say. Is that right?

    - Jim<BR><BR>
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  4. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    Ok Crilly, I see I missed something. Your initial comment of "I use a PNP sensor hooked up to the tack wire." led me to believe that everything else you were saying was related to engine speed. The subsequent comments about wheel speed led me to think that it wasn't being explained clearly.

    Now I think I get it. The "tack wire" you were talking about is the cruise control tach input, not the engine tach output.

    What is this item you get from Grainger's? A divide-by-some-number IO device? What's the brand and part number on the case? It seems like it would be a handy item to have around. Like a church key :1drink

    - Jim<BR>
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  5. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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    Hi Guys

    Couldn't get a signal again with help this evening. At 10mV Jim, as you say I wouldn't see it with my equipment. It would be fair to say though that the sensor is more or less the same as the 1150.

    Crilly - I was planning to use the tach wire as a clutch switch alternative, however the cheaper units available for sale in my part of the world will not take an ignition/alternator etc input (according to the manufacturer). They do come with a VR sensor and a couple of magnets, but I can't get one of them to work because I can't find anywhere to mount the magnets.

    The next model up will accept ignition and VSS signals, however I have trouble getting a good enough signal from the VSS to make this unit work. I don't know if the speedometer computer plays with the signal at all, which is why I am investigating the use of the signal directly from the ABS sensor.

    What would be nice is to reduce the number of pulses from the abs sensor to make a cheap unit work (only has options for 2000 or 5000ppm, which is far too low for the abs ring). Alternatively, I need a useful signal from the ABS sensor to get the more expensive unit to work using its VSS INPUT (which will accept up to 192,000ppm).

    Jim is trying to help me work out if there is a usable signal from the ABS to do this.

    What is this PNP thing you talk about? And how are you getting 6 pulses/rev from the brake rotor? Are you using a VR sensor and the sweeping of part of the rotor passed the sensor? What am I missing.
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  6. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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  7. Crilly

    Crilly Been here awhile

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    :norton Found the box it came in.
    Telemecanique - Inductive proximity switch - XS1 M08PA370 - PNP
    #27
  8. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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    Do you have a picture of the bike mounting you used?

    Is it hooked directly to the input of the cruise, or did you need to use a divide circuit to get under the 8000ppm limit of the CCS100?

    If I had a divide circuit, I should be able to use the existing ABS sensor should I not Jim?
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  9. Crilly

    Crilly Been here awhile

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    :norton Wired to the aux circuit - direct to the input tack wire on the CCS 100. Two wires to the tail light from the curise control. And the rest to the aux circuit. On my GS I get 5 pulses per rev of the wheel. 60 MPH = 1 mile a min. Wheel Diameter 25". 25" times 3.1416= 78.54" divided by 12 = 6.55 Feet. 5280' divided by 6.55 = 806 RPM times 5 = 4000 pulses per min.
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  10. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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    cool, but how and where did you mount that pnp sensor? And what triggers it? The metal webs on the brake rotor carrier? The bolts that hold the rotor?, magnets fixed to the rotor somehow?
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  11. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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    Back to the mechanics:

    The GS throttle cable splitter assembly:
    [​IMG]

    and the RT:

    [​IMG]

    doesn't exactly look like a stretch. From pulling the real things apart, the pictures are accurate. All you need is to drill a hole in the rhs of the case for the cruise actuator cable, and order or make the cruise quadrant cam and return spring.

    If you wanted the full monty you could also find a return cable, cancel switch etc, but why bother.
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  12. Crilly

    Crilly Been here awhile

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    :norton The sensor sences metal. I mounted it so it counts the 5 spooks of the brake rotor.
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  13. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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    thanks Crilly
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  14. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <BR>Alright, this is becoming clearer.

    The cruise control manufacturer seeks to differentiate the raw VR wheel sensor signal, from the VSS (Vehicle Speed Signal).

    The raw sensor signal is the small AC signal right from the sensor of course. The one you and I are looking at. Let's call it VR.

    But the Vehicle Speed Signal (VSS) is the 'manufactured' DC pulsetrain signal sent directly to a speedometer say.

    But the GS (as do a whole slew of vehicles) doesn't send a VSS pulse train to the speedometer. Instead the raw wheel sensor signal is interpreted by the ABS controller, and some data value (identified as vehicle speed) is put out on the CANbus for the instrument cluster to read. So a VSS signal, as typically known, does not exist on a great many vehicles.

    I KNOW all this going in, and I made the mistake because it seemed silly to me to design a product that would have accept signals catch-as-catch-can, and not include the primary sensor as a possible input. So I was thinking it wasn't an issue to consider the VR and VSS signals in the same 'batch'.

    Silly me. I think I'm on the same page now.


    Questions:

    Ok, so Tim, what is the max PPM (Pulse Per Minute) for the input(s) of the control you prefer to use?

    I see where you say 2000 or 5000ppm. Those are the choices then?

    Does your data list anything about voltage levels?

    The data for PPM range that I have pertains to the AP-300 and AP-500 so it does not apply I see.

    Will you mind soldering a little proto board or something together?

    If so, there still may be other solutions. Not that I have any idea what they are right now mind you.

    [Last minute EDIT] Are you going to use the proximity switch on the rotor carrier spokes instead?

    - Jim<BR><BR>
    #34
  15. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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    Hi Jim

    I would like to get a cheap unit working (limited to a choice of 2000 or 5000ppm) because it comes with a nice backlit control pad, simple to waterproof etc. The more expensive ones have stalks made for cars.

    I have no idea of the input voltage for the cruise pulse sensor input, but it comes with an inductive sensor out of the box and a couple of magnets. I can't get it to register anything just passing lumps of metal by it (ie it seems to require the magnets and not just a lump of vaguely ferrous metal), which is why I am curious about the proximity sensor crilly mentioned. A little shooting through catalogues suggests that his sensor is worth about US$90 which means I'd be better off with the more expensive cruise unit that will accept very high ppm (like the ap300 you've looked at) and use the abs sensor input directly.

    What I would prefer is some method of using the high ppm abs VR sensor to generate a similar signal, but divided by a lot (10 or 20 say). Is that possible? There used to be a kit for sale here to correct vss signals for speedometers - I thought I could use it until it was removed from sale quickly (perhaps they had issues with it).

    Soldering a board is no problem mate.

    Cheers
    #35
  16. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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    ps: seeing as crilly uses a cruise unit that will accept 12V input (from a proximity sensor, tach etc) and my available unit will not, I guess that is out. I'm back to using the abs VR if i want to keep it cheap.

    Worst case is that I get the more expensive unit and STILL need a prox sensor if I want to use rear wheel speed and the onboard VSS signal isn't usable.
    #36
  17. AntonLargiader

    AntonLargiader Long timer

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    Hey guys. You rock, and it'll be cool to see what comes out of this even if I don't follow all the PNP crap.

    There are 2-wire and 3-wire hall sensors, and the iABS wheelspeed sensors are 2-wire HES.

    Edit: look for .6~1.5V on the return wire. That is the signal. Doesn't sound very usable to me, but it's all there is. As mentioned, there is no wire carrying a speed signal any more.
    #37
  18. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <BR>Hey Anton, are you trolling, or do you believe your comments? I mean, I know we rock and everything, but the other things?

    - Jim<BR><BR>
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  19. AntonLargiader

    AntonLargiader Long timer

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    The 2-wire HES stuff? The latter. I take it you don't?
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  20. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

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    <BR>You are the Technical Editor for OTL magazine? :D <BR><BR>
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