15 min idle. Is it really necesary?

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by Decepticon, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. Decepticon

    Decepticon Been here awhile

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    #1
  2. Katoom72

    Katoom72 Been here awhile

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    Translation to the original document:

    http://www.produkte24.com/cy/ktm-sommer-948/sommer-special-2008-12696/seite-278-gross.html
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  3. Decepticon

    Decepticon Been here awhile

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    I spoke with the mechanic and he assures that he does the 15 min idle process
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  4. Hootowl

    Hootowl Long timer

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    When I was at the KTM rally last year in Bend the factory mechanic flashed my ECU with the Akra map.
    After flashing, he ran my 990 until the fan came on and at that point turned off the engine.
    I asked "don't you need to do the 15 minute idle procedure"?
    His response was no.
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  5. StevenD

    StevenD Hmmmm, dirt!

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    Mind, only Works with o2 sensors active in the map. On the old akra map this is just a waist of fuel.
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  6. KMC1

    KMC1 There is no spoon.

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    Great info! :freaky
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  7. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob

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    What makes you think that? What about learning the other 5 or more sensor ranges and current altitude? I'll have to throw a BS on that statement.

    REMEMBER, this 15 min idle only does something if you have just reset the ECU settings using the KTM special programming tool or TuneECU. When you remap the ECU is reset is done for you. Otherwise, you are just doing an extensive warm-up and wasting fuel.

    Why do I even try to shovel sand against this internet sea of misinformation? Are you looking for some type of KTM Religious beliefs?
    Reference> http://www.ktm950.info/how/wotf/wotf.html#SubjectIndex
    And> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
    Religion is on the down swing you know.
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  8. ADVill

    ADVill Been here awhile

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    Did it just yesterday. It helped. That is about all i can say.
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  9. StevenD

    StevenD Hmmmm, dirt!

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    :lol3
    Whahaha talk about misinformation.. yeah, what about the other sensors which are all static? No o2 is no feedback. No adjust table to be made, ever. Not after 15 minutes, not after 15 years.

    If screaming bs, do it on a topic you actually know about.
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  10. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob

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    Yeaahhh, looks like you are confusing 'O2 Feedback' that happens when ever the engine is running (O2 on) with 'Adaptive Learning' that is done primarily during the initial 15 min after a reset. This thread is about the 15 min idle question, which is a discussion on the Adaptive learning.

    The ECU on the 07-08's updates the tables about every 15 min during running, the 09-up update every 9 min. The 15 min idle speeds this up a little, so the bike runs better when it is ridden after tuning changes.

    I did use an upper case BS, but it was more of a moan, not a scream.
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  11. StevenD

    StevenD Hmmmm, dirt!

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    Then what will the ecu safe to the adj. tables if there is no feedback from an O2? There is nothing to learn exept for how far to wind the idle stepper up and down. That is learned in the first start and always adjusted on.

    Adaptive learning can happen only with O2's. Without them all you do is waist 15 minutes of fuel better used for some riding.
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  12. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob

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    During Initialization the ECU learns:

    The sensor values and ranges. All sensors are different, for example the three map sensors, front cyl, rear cyl and atmos, all have different voltages for the same reading. Before the engine is started, they are all reading the same values (atmos pressure), but putting out different voltages. This delta is saved. If you swap these sensors with out doing a reset, the engine tuning will change and may not be correct. This is for the very tight emissions.

    The TPS sensor changes depending a little on temperature. The idle position of the throttle plates change as the engine breaks in, so the voltage is different. During the 15 min idle 'Initialization' the voltage of the TPS at idle speed is kept.

    The home altitude of the bike determines some of these values also. Since KTM can't predict where the bikes are going, they are shipped with the ECU in the 'reset' condition. The KTM tech has to start up each new bike and let is idle to initialize it. If you ship your bike from sea level to a mountain city, it may not run very well for a while. If you reset it and initialize it, then it will run 'good' right away. I guess that's the whole idea behind this.

    The ECU writes out this info as the bike runs. The old 07-08 ECU will write every 15 min or so. The new 09-up will write out more often, I've heard every 9 min. If you ride the bike from sea level to the mountains, it will write enough to keep it running good the entire way.

    The O2 sensors read the mixture created under cruse and idle. If they are turned off, then the ECU throws a mixture 'down the hole' and hopefully it is correct. If they are turned on, then it will get some feed back and correct it. The voltage signal for an O2 sensor (narrow band) is essentially high or low, on or off. I don't know if any values for it are kept during initialization.

    When KTM was selling Akcro exhausts and providing maps for it, we were supposed to initialize it after install. This map has the O2 sensors off.

    With TuneECU available, I can't think of a reason to have the O2 sensors off. Maybe for a full track bike that never idles or cruses. But any street ridden bike it doesn't make sense (or cents).
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  13. StevenD

    StevenD Hmmmm, dirt!

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    During Initialization the ECU learns:

    The sensor values and ranges. All sensors are different, for example the three map sensors, front cyl, rear cyl and atmos, all have different voltages for the same reading. Before the engine is started, they are all reading the same values (atmos pressure), but putting out different voltages. This delta is saved. If you swap these sensors with out doing a reset, the engine tuning will change and may not be correct. This is for the very tight emissions.

    Nope, this is not done during the 15 minute thing, this is done every time you cycle the key, while the rpm needle is going up and down.

    The TPS sensor changes depending a little on temperature. The idle position of the throttle plates change as the engine breaks in, so the voltage is different. During the 15 min idle 'Initialization' the voltage of the TPS at idle speed is kept.

    The tps position / idle stepper position is constantly read and adjusted on the fly, it changed too much to be a fixed stored value. Try it, adjust you tps, bike will start low or high, adjusts in a little while and next time starts spot on (within the small useable band set for idle tps voltage of course)

    The home altitude of the bike determines some of these values also. Since KTM can't predict where the bikes are going, they are shipped with the ECU in the 'reset' condition. The KTM tech has to start up each new bike and let is idle to initialize it. If you ship your bike from sea level to a mountain city, it may not run very well for a while. If you reset it and initialize it, then it will run 'good' right away. I guess that's the whole idea behind this.

    This is the part where the o2's play a major role. next to the load sensors wich are still used to achieve this when o2's are off.

    The ECU writes out this info as the bike runs. The old 07-08 ECU will write every 15 min or so. The new 09-up will write out more often, I've heard every 9 min. If you ride the bike from sea level to the mountains, it will write enough to keep it running good the entire way.

    True, this is software in the ecu and not due to hardware changes of the ecu. with the keihin programming tool you would probably be able to set this at about any value you desire.

    The O2 sensors read the mixture created under cruse and idle. If they are turned off, then the ECU throws a mixture 'down the hole' and hopefully it is correct. If they are turned on, then it will get some feed back and correct it. The voltage signal for an O2 sensor (narrow band) is essentially high or low, on or off. I don't know if any values for it are kept during initialization.

    Yes, these values are stored during initialization getting the idle mix just right for TPS 3% - 1% (about) wich have a lot to do with the 'snatch' off idle, what you mainly experience after a good init run. With o2's on that is.

    When KTM was selling Akcro exhausts and providing maps for it, we were supposed to initialize it after install. This map has the O2 sensors off.

    With TuneECU available, I can't think of a reason to have the O2 sensors off. Maybe for a full track bike that never idles or cruses. But any street ridden bike it doesn't make sense (or cents).

    This is corrected later by leaving the o2 on in the ktm provided akra map's. the first released akra maps had them off, probably because they were easyer to devellop. I too rather leave o2's on on a street. Leave them off for tuning though. After you map is just right, switch them back on.
    #13
  14. Decepticon

    Decepticon Been here awhile

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    Thanks every one for the posts, I am learning fast this way!

    1. Connect bike to computer with TuneECU.
    2. Enable O2 sensors to increase mileage.
    3. Disable secondary butterflies

    Should I do the 15 min idle? Is not a remapping, is just a change in features.
    step 3, disable butterflies, would help to fuel consumption?
    #14
  15. Dusty

    Dusty Long timer

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    Do not dissable the secondary butterflies unless you remove them.
    #15