1986 XR600R Basket case - Hope to revive!

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by LandsVW, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    As long as I'm spinning the clutch input shaft it seems to shift ok, although sometimes hangs a little by 4th and 5th. If I move the shifter shaft up and down and keep spinning it will shift into those gears. I'm assuming that's because it's not a continuous revolution and the cogs aren't smoothly meshing? I remember having to do that with my other bikes by rocking them back and fourth, engine not running, to get them to shift through the gears so I'm assuming it is a similar issue and not really a problem.

    My first 'real' problem: Cylinder bolted on and torqued no probs. Went to install head bolts. Not even up to 'hand tight' and I could feel the rear one near the timing chain spinning. Yep. Stripped threads. Trip to Roseburg! I now have in my possession a M8X1.25 Helicoil Kit, courtesy of O'Reilly Auto. I have enough to do all the threads if it comes to that!

    I am using Indian Head Shellac Gasket coating instead of RTV or Copper Spray. I've always had good success with it on these kind of projects.

    That's it for now! May go on out to the garage tonight and install a helicoil.
    #21
  2. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    I helicoiled 2 of the headbolts. The other bolt on the right side also decided to let go. Lucky I had a helicoil kit with12 inserts! All torqued to 21 ft/lb.

    THEN I put the timing chain on. Yep, definitely stretched... Upper gear looks great. Lower gear has a little wear showing on the teeth, kind of a pattern of streaks from the chain. I guess I'd better start saving for a chain. Anyone have or know of something in a reasonable price range?

    Also, I have a lead on a 1987 XL600 that had the cam and lifters go bad. It's going to have to be a trade type deal,
    as my budget is limiting out quickly... But, may be my answer to a street legal bike. Parts parts and more parts...

    that's it until a chain is in my possession!
    #22
  3. mcma111

    mcma111 Long timer

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    If you buy that 87 XL600 I have a cam available.
    #23
  4. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    I'll keep that in mind! We are talking 'bang sticks' and other trade items as of today for the XL. If nothing else it may have a good timing chain/gear set up, and a frame that can be titled.
    #24
  5. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    I'm researching timing chains.

    Pro-X seems to be quality. I found one with part number 31.1323 listed as 83-87 XR and XL600's on ebay. However,
    It may be NOS as the Pro-X catalog has no listing. Anyone know if this is the right chain? Any other chain part numbers for this bike? I really don't want to spend even more money buying the later chain and sprockets...

    Anyone know the D.I.D. part number? how about the Wiseco? Any other brands I'm forgetting?

    thanks,

    L
    #25
  6. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    A german site I just discovered is saying that the 31.1323 is a CRF230 (so Ebay is wrong, imagine that!). The chain that fits a 1983-87 XL600 (and I'm assuming that means 86 XR600) is actually 31.1683... Quest continues!
    #26
  7. Ghost_Mutant

    Ghost_Mutant looking for bionics

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    Those chains on ebay plus the ones sold by XRsonly are the only new chains I know about. I bought mine from XRsonly back when I was rebuilding my two engines.

    Funny, the ebay listing for the PROX has the wrong part number in the photo, but the description states the right number.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-XL600...7-/360482553545?forcev4exp=true&forceRpt=true

    If you were interested in this brand then I'd send them a message through ebay and make sure about the part number they are selling.

    The only other option I could think of for finding decent chains is to do the parts search on those other bikes that supposedly have the same timing chain. I'll eventually need another chain for a third engine build I'm planning but I'm not in a hurry to spend money right now either :lol3

    Other bikes with same chain as listed on the cheap ebay chain listing:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-XR600...ies&fits=Model:XL&hash=item5d354a961e&vxp=mtr

    SUZUKIS
    LT300EH/EJ/EK Quadrunner (1987-1989)

    YAMAHAS
    XV500K Virago (1983)
    XV535 Virago (1987-1997)
    XV650 V-Star, All (1998-2005)
    #27
  8. Ivanych

    Ivanych Ivanych

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  9. Ghost_Mutant

    Ghost_Mutant looking for bionics

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    #29
  10. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    I probably can afford a 40$ chain, but I'm not really able to swing almost 100$ for a chain right now, just money issues...

    I found this part number: 82RH2015-118 which is related to: Regina, Tsubaki, Sudco, Morse and I think Borg-Warner.
    This chain fits a bunch of other engines, but I haven't tracked that down yet. Actually this quest is kinda fun...
    #30
  11. Ivanych

    Ivanych Ivanych

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    I ordered the OEM chain, together with many other details, shipping one big pile was better for me, and I do not think the error number and error my research.
    Good luck in your work.:clap
    #31
  12. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    #32
  13. baloneyskin daddy

    baloneyskin daddy bikaholic

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    These older radial valve heads had problems with the valve seats coming loose in the heads .Warm the head up without the valves in and check them out.
    #33
  14. Zombie_Stomp

    Zombie_Stomp Aspiring human

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    ^^^ I got paranoid enough about that issue that I bought a brand spankin' new oem factory head. The one in the first engine on my XL got so overheated by a PO that a valve seat dropped and was rattling enough to cause wear in the aluminum. Later found cylinder sleeve dropped in the aluminum as well. I never got it started with that head in there. I wonder if it would have run at all if I had gotten the new stator it needed first. I think XRs only does that service. I heard they do it at the factory with a certain tolerance machined then use liquid nitrogen to shrink the steel insert. One machinist at the auto parts store I was using was talking about making little ding marks all around the head where the valve insert goes, then a bunch of ding marks (with a center punch) around the valve seat steel insert, then using red loctite, pressing it in. I asked my retired, formerly fulltime self employed machinist friend about this procedure and he said "those guys are kind of a bunch of yahoos", at which point he explained how that would fail in short order, and how they do it at the factory. That got me asking all kinds of questions, like, can any used head ever be trusted knowing this?

    The point of my long story about my experience with bad valve seats is:
    1) take the valves out at least to see if the valve seat has obvious signs of overheating or any wear around the outside, and to see if the valve seat just friggin falls out.

    2) don't take the head to any yahoos. Use a motorcycle-specific shop.

    3)Don't get too paranoid. It is most likely fine and will be unless you overheat the shit out of the engine.

    P.s. there is a test you can do to check valves too. Tilt the head with exhaust ports toward the sky and try pouring solvent in there and see if it leaks past the valves. You can try petroleum based liquids of various viscosities to see if they leak, do this for intake side as well.

    Hopefully you honed the cylinder and a new set of rings, that's pretty important once they have seated they can't really find their original seal again once disassembled.

    And of the valves one more time, bar minimum take them out and replace the seals, before that, lap them with valve lapping compound and check to make sure there are concentric wear patterns all around the valve. Better one step than this is replace the valve guides too, but IIRC you are on a budget.

    You can lap the head mating surface on a piece of double-thickness glass with very fine sandpaper and something wet like mineral spirits. Same for the cylinder, but that's (hopefully) already on with it's nice hone job and set of piston rings.
    #34
  15. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    I appreciate all the advice!

    Here's what I am doing for 2 reasons: 1) money, 2) nervous about what else may be wrong. I have repaired the gearbox and inner engine with new gaskets and the shifter shaft. However, because I haven't heard the bike run and have no idea what else may be wrong, I am going to reassemble with a new timing chain and gaskets. I pulled the filter basket out of the frame and inspected it. No particles of any kind. The oil filter area also looks fine (I'm going to use that filter for the first oil warm up then drain/change oil and filter). The top of the piston had no carbon on it, although the two exhaust valves did. I cleaned them. I'm not going to re-ring it or change valve seals or anything else until I hear it run. Even if it's smoking I can at least verify gears, knocks, carbs, spark, etc. If it has issues with using oil, smoking, etc. etc. I can pretty easily take down the top end and fix those problems - in the frame if need be.

    The main area I have a concern about is the small end of the rod. it did have a small amount of scoring. I did buy a new piston pin and it seemed to fit ok, but... If it has a knock, i.e. crankshaft/rod or whatever, then I have to reassess the whole project as I probably will have to wait until the 'money tree' has grown more dollars... At least by that time I will have the whole thing reassembled instead of sitting around in boxes and yogurt containers in my garage...

    Yeah, I know, not exactly an ideal situation, but I really want to 'prove' the engine before I continue to throw money into it. The bike (supposedly) was running fine when the chain guide broke in two. However, my latest guess as to why it broke is because the chain was worn out and flopping around.

    My Scottish roots of being cheap are fighting a battle with my Swedish roots of excellence in mechanical engineering. LOL
    #35
  16. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    Well, I now have the cam chain tensioner spring and washer for the kick start in my possession. Meanwhile I ordered a timing chain. If all goes as planned, should see the chain toward the end of the week. THEN I can continue to reassemble. The tensioner spring was definitely at least 1/4 of an inch less tension than the new one. The tensioner itself feels good though.
    #36
  17. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    Has anyone ever either measured or heard of a (factory) measurement between a certain number of links, for a timing chain on this engine? Just out of curiosity I would like to know the measurement of a 'normal' brand new chain per link length (lets say 10 links or something) and compare that to mine. If nothing else it would be a reference number for verifiable chain stretch.
    #37
  18. Zombie_Stomp

    Zombie_Stomp Aspiring human

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    Not sure about that but you have a new unit on the way so that's good. May I also mention that several XL'ers on here have had the insight to make a point of polishing their cam chain tensioner pivot pins with fine sandpaper. It gets rid of the polished spots on it and lets it grab again like it should. I advise it. I might have that old froze-ass timing chain around from the XR600 engine I got for parts, give me a couple days to dig around for it...
    #38
  19. mcma111

    mcma111 Long timer

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    You will never get an accurate measurement on a cam chain. The sure way to check is to install the chain and cam. If the cam drive gear marks line up with the head then the chain is fine. If not and it looks like the mark is about half a tooth off (it's always the forward mark being up) then that right there tells you the chain is stretched. Even if the chain is stretched the bike will still run. The cam timing will just be off a few degrees. More low end.
    #39
  20. LandsVW

    LandsVW Been here awhile

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    Thanks, I can put my old chain next to a straightedge and keeping the links in a straight line, change the length of the chain almost 1/4 an inch - and that's just one side of the chain. Also, when I wrap it around the sprockets and pull it tight, it won't line up with the final few sprockets - or, if I hold it tight at the bottom of the sprocket, it is loose at the top. DEF stretched! I did what you said too, and was out by a long way. Just was wondering if there was an accurate measure of new vs. old. I'm assuming it's the pins wearing out in each link versus the actual stretching of metal.
    #40