2 Kinds of rider

Discussion in 'Face Plant' started by 110Mike, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. 110Mike

    110Mike Lug in my Kop

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    Finally.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    You heard the saying: There are 2 kinds of riders, those who fell, and those who are going to.<o:p></o:p>
    4 Years I have been one of the latter. Until today.<o:p></o:p>
    I am a fairly aggressive rider, as aggressive as one can be on a R80ST, R100RS or R100RT. Don’t do stupid things like wheelies or doughnuts or things like that, but rides very assertively. Usually very aware of cagers, and able to “read” the road accurately. I have to add at this stage however that 4 weeks ago, a good friend and fellow rider, gave me a reprimand for my aggressive riding style. After that I toned down a bit.<o:p></o:p>
    Monday morning, fairly heavy traffic on my 10 mile commute. I pulled in front of a car (normal like, not squid or douchebag like), took a left turn 2<SUP>nd</SUP> or 3<SUP>rd</SUP> gear I think. Leaned fairly well over, following a car about a cycle`s length in front of me. Car in front of me braked suddenly for a car pulling in front of him. Me…leaned over….grabs the front brake….washout.<o:p></o:p>
    I hit the ground, recalled my head getting a bang, but that’s all I recall of the spill. Stood up immediately because I was afraid of someone else running over me. My bike laid on its right side 15 meters on, against the sidewalk. Removed my gloves and helmet, and picked the bike up.<o:p></o:p>
    My jacket`s left shoulder and elbow is scuffed. My left rear jeans pocket is ripped. I have a rashed up left knee, rashed skin over the lateral malleolus. Some stiffness in neck and shoulder. Slight headache. Although I recall a bang to the head, there is almost no tarmac evidence on my helmet, just a large rubber or plastic scuff. <o:p></o:p>
    Damage to the bike. Now what I find difficult to understand: I took the spill leaning left, the left crashbar is bent and scratched, and by my reckoning I should only have kept on sliding on the left side. But it seems the bike flipped over as the right pannier was off, the right exhaust bent up, the right crashbar bent and scratched. I suspect that I may have hit the car I was trailing, and flipped over?<o:p></o:p>
    The car in front of me was the only one that stopped. I did not see any damage to it, and the driver did not mention anything. I sent him on his way as I was sure I did not need help, and that the spill was entirely my own fault. So I was in no state of mind to go over the accident with him. I also did not realize that I may have hit him.<o:p></o:p>
    My heart aches for my (ex-) pristine R100RT bought 3 weeks ago, with only 8800 miles on!<o:p></o:p>
    Lessons learned:<o:p></o:p>
    1) Do not try to predict the traffic. Although one gets a “feeling” for the traffic over time, you always get an exception. In this case the driver in front of me was new to the area, and failed to “predict” the car pulling in front of him.<o:p></o:p>
    2) When your ability to stop safely is compromised, such as when leaned over, increase your following distance.<o:p></o:p>
    3) There is a fine line between assertive and aggressive riding<o:p></o:p>
    Ride safe….Always<o:p></o:p>
    #1
  2. tkent02

    tkent02 Long timer

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    Your friend was right.
    #2
  3. ZAC949

    ZAC949 n00b

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    I am certain he figured that out, hence the post!
    #3
  4. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Sorry about your bike, glad you're OK! You were a bike length behind the car??? Way to close my friend!
    #4
  5. DudeMang

    DudeMang Adventurer

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    A good reminder for all of us. As crashes or scares move further into our past, we transition more and more from assertive to aggressive riding.

    Glad to hear that you are alright.
    #5
  6. DOGSROOT

    DOGSROOT OUTSIDE

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    Hey 110Mike,

    Sorry to hear about your accident.

    You're lucky it wasn't worse.

    Hope you heal quickly. :norton

    Folks are gonna rag on ya for SOTGATT, and for the tailgating.

    I'll try and refrain from being judgemental, and offer a few (hopefully helpful) comments.


    If the car in front of you gets smucked, it'd be nice to have a little more room, so as not to be automatically

    involved in the fallout... :norton


    You may want to invest in a pair of riding pants.

    I have the BMW Summer Pants II and III, in beige and black.

    Lov'em!

    The Summer Pants III seem cooler, even though black, due to sun reflecting voodoo.

    They would have prevented road rash.

    Boots would also be prudent.



    Another thought; you have some nice bikes.

    However, they may not suit an aggressive rider IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT.

    I'd suggest you look at adding a K 75 or K 100 or K 1100 w/ ABS for the city, in addition to your

    beautiful collection of twins.

    They're all available pretty inexpensively, and the ABS would have prevented this washout.

    YMMV

    Hell, when I think about it, might as well go whole hog and get the new Ducati MTS 1200...

    ...It comes w/ ABS. :evil

    There are those that rag on ABS, but there's a very good reason that aeroplanes have ABS,

    some since 1929!!!



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Early_systems
    #6
  7. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

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    I rate myself as a very agressive rider, but no way I am staying a bike length behind cars in that kind of traffic.
    I get closer then is good on the interstate to draft sometimes (I have a little bike) but never in traffic like that with people expected to do sudden and dumb things.

    You ALWAYS have to leave an out.

    Plus, if you are one bike or car length behind something, there is no time to dodge a big sharp edged pot hole or oil slick that you could not see.

    If you do not want to go down, you can not over ride your sight lines at any time.
    That has worked for me for the last 35 years.

    I am glad you were not hurt, I think it would be easy to get run over in that situation, which would not be fun.
    #7
  8. Islesfan91

    Islesfan91 Adventurer

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    I'm confused, not disagreeing, so I'll ask, if he had abs and grabbed the front brake while leaned in a corner how will the abs prevent the crash? I was taught if you grab the brakes in a corner you're going down. I was also told by a rep at a kawasaki dealer that races that even with abs, the brakes still have the potential to lock for a split second, and at lean, that seems unlikely it would prevent a crash.

    just interested and trying to understand.
    #8
  9. John Bentall

    John Bentall Been here awhile

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    I am a resident of the UK and am fairly horrified by the reports of poor driving by cagers over in the US. Rear ender's, people on cell phones and drivers not looking before pulling out or using mirrors before turning left. I am reading that many people have incidents at junctions.

    Is the answer to avoid overtakes near junctions, exits to shopping malls etc. ?

    I no longer overtake in such situations unless I have a very clear view into the junction and am 100% certain that it empty.

    In the UK we tend not to use the word "aggressive" but rather "progressive" - as it making good progress. Aggressive has too many negative overtones and we are meant too be sharing the road with other users including pedestrians and animals!

    John
    #9
  10. Bump Stop

    Bump Stop 2 Wheeled Drifter

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    we have a lot of area, and far more 2 lane high speed roads than you do.
    #10
  11. mach1charlie

    mach1charlie To old to fall off

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    A fellow rider told me, a sliding bike always flips. When you lay it down or low side, alway get away from the bike. He was still on it when it fliped, hurt him badly.
    Watch race footage you will see it happen.

    Also motorcycles can not out brake cars...even in a stright line. But hey, your here to bitch about it and getting smarter.
    #11
  12. Bar None

    Bar None Candy Ass

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    From OP "Leaned fairly well over, following a car about a cycle`s length in front of me. Car in front of me braked suddenly for a car pulling in front of him. Me&#8230;leaned over&#8230;.grabs the front brake&#8230;.washout."

    From DOGSROOT
    "They're all available pretty inexpensively, and the ABS would have prevented this washout."

    Since the OP was "leaned fairly well over" ABS would not have prevented this washout. Momentary lockup of the front brake/wheel when leaned over and you are probably down, ABS is good but not idiot proof.
    #12
  13. DOGSROOT

    DOGSROOT OUTSIDE

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    I find this very interesting.

    Islesfan91's question and Barnone's assertions sent me to the www for a little research.

    Quite the controversy!

    I found a couple of ABS engineers battling it out on BMWMOA.

    Here's three quotes from their debate:



    "Here is an interesting quote right fom the BMW technical report on ABS, including the EVO system: "With or without ABS - braking is only possible to a limited extent when heeled over in a corner." "

    "ABS works at any lean angle -- however, the *effectiveness* of ABS in terms of saving your tail decreases as lean angle increased, simply because the available traction decreases the farther over you are. As some point, the lean angle and current traction conditions (defined by tire material and construction, road surface, ambient temperature, etc.) are such that ABS is essentially useless. At other times, as noted above, you may still be sufficeintly within the ABS effectiveness envelope for it to save your tail."

    "Don't be planning on relying on ABS to save you when your cornering judgment has not been at its peak."



    When I read the OP, I thought that the key words:

    "Fairly heavy traffic",

    "Normal like, not squid or douchebag like",

    "Took a left turn",


    and

    "Sidewalk"

    all indicated surface streets and a left hand turn at a light.

    Unless my assumptions were wrong, his speed and lean angle were not likely all that great.

    I figured he hit some gravel, or an oily patch, and that ABS *might* have helped given those conditions.

    I *am* aware that ABS ain't black magic; I've lost it on streetcar tracks both w/ and w/out ABS. :cry

    At slow speeds too. :baldy





    I ride pretty hard, but in the rain I'm more conservative than anyone else I ride with.

    I attribute this to the fact that I ride all year, and am very leery of the wet, especially in the winter. :rofl

    I have needed to use the brakes in hot turns before, and actually thought that the ABS had helped me;

    nice to think that it was in fact my "peak cornering judgement" that kept me up!!! :norton



    Here's some fun ABS footage.

    Couldn't find any clowns testing ABS in corners.

    Wonder why? :evil

    http://m.youtube.com/?piggyback=2#/watch?v=-Zv3Sacl7JQ&desktop_uri=/watch?v=-Zv3Sacl7JQ

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Q5wqqg97r4E&desktop_uri=/watch?v=Q5wqqg97r4E
    #13
  14. Switchblade315

    Switchblade315 Long timer

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    sounds to me like the bike chucked you when it flipped. you hit the breaks it went down hit the crash bar and came back up enough for the front tire to touch the ground. it was now in a full turn and caused the bike to flop over the the other side. and this is a hard flop because all it the momentum you had just got transferred to this one movement.

    think of it like this. how ever fast your tires rotate at what ever speed you where going, you and your bike flipped over at the same rotation speed. or at lest really close to it. done it on the dirt and it hurt like hell.
    #14
  15. Pecha72

    Pecha72 Long timer

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    Big German magazine Motorrad tested in 2010 a VFR1200 ABS braking during cornering in different speeds, and various lean angles. Their conclusion was, that in normal road-riding situations it is clearly an improvement in safety, and that the front does NOT wash out under any sensible lean angles. In fact it never happened to them.

    But it's good to also keep in mind: ABS is just a general term for the anti-locking brake system, and there are many different manufacturers as well as many generations of the system used in different decades, not to mention the differences between bikes, tyres, etc. So they will not always function exactly the same way.

    I believe all modern ABS systems will help you, if you need to brake hard when leaned over. This test seemed to confirm that.
    #15
  16. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

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    I brake in turns (without abs) often, you just have to judge the traction limits and not be sudden.
    If you HAVE to brake in turns, you are doing it wrong.

    Here in the US, we are FREE.
    We are free to cut people off, pass on the right, get 4 inches from someones bumper or rear tire at high speed, free to not use signals, or headlights in the rain/dusk with a dark colored car, free to text and drive, eat and drive, fool with the gps.
    You are FREE to speed, or go slow in the passing lane, and free to be brain dead and drive.
    In NJ, we are now free to drive with no brakes, bald tires, lights out, since they do not inspect cars anymore.
    We can also carry guns so when someone does something we do not like, we can shoot them.
    #16
  17. DOGSROOT

    DOGSROOT OUTSIDE

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    F*cking Germans!!!

    They know about as much about motorcycles as those damn Finns know about rallye driving.

    Zey know NUZINK!!!



    :norton
    #17
  18. DOGSROOT

    DOGSROOT OUTSIDE

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    You muß excusen me... :norton

    Sandy is nigh, I am drinking and taping up ze windows.

    Ze vife is outgepassed. :1drink

    God help those who got the full force of her!!!

    (I am tempted to go for a <strike>gutsy</strike> gusty Hellride tomorrow....hangover permitting....). :eek1
    #18
  19. 110Mike

    110Mike Lug in my Kop

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    Thanks for all the responses, best wishes, advice.

    Dogsroot, the K bikes I think will be too top heavy for me. And methinks I may have had worse foot injury with a K bike. The boxer portrusions gave some protection.

    The Ducati, yeah, I drool for suchs bikes, but suspect I will kill myself with suchs a thing.

    Anyway, I drool more over Airheads.

    I was leaned well over. As I said I ride spirited, slightly more so on this particular day. That particular turn is usually taken at 40mph+. I do recall the bike not falling over much after grabbing front brake.

    ABS, fabulous additional safety device that it is, cannot compensate for stupidity. Stupidity was the reason for my faceplant.

    It wasn`nt the speed that hurt......It was the sudden stop!

    I am the religious type, and I thank God for another chance to ride.

    Mike
    #19
  20. janeuner

    janeuner Get Some

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    Haven't seen anyone single this out, "following a car about a cycle`s length in front of me," even though it could have spared the fall. Following distance, 2 seconds minimum, 3 seconds recommended.

    Glad you lived to learn. Heal up quick!
    #20