2 stroke adv bikes ?

Discussion in 'Australia' started by wiggywildwildwest, Dec 12, 2010.

  1. wiggywildwildwest

    wiggywildwildwest cranky bugger

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    g'day guys. i've been thinking lately about the simple wonder of 2 stroke engines. light, powerful, compact and unfortunately relatively thirsty.

    i reckon if the thirst bit could be fixed, a 2 stroke adv bike would be the duck's nuts. i've been looking on epay and the interboobs in general. the bits to fuel inject a single cyl. 2 smoker wouldn't be over hard or dear to come by.

    also, the direct injection stuff looks like the go, but seems too complex and a bit too hard atm. maybe when there's a bit more info about.

    has anyone here had experience with efi 2 strokes ? outboards most likely ? are they significantly cleaner running and more economical ?
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  2. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    Wiggy... keep your eyes peeled in the next twelve to eighteen months towards the european end of the marketplace... There's some interesting stuff happening with direct injection/Fuel injection/2 stroke engines going on behind the scenes in some back sheds about the place...

    As you say; the technology has existed in outboard motors and snowmobile engines for a while now... light, economical (edit: maybe "efficient" is a better word), ie: good performance to weight ratio...

    A light 250 - 300 cc Fi enduro 2 stroke... or how about something like a 450 - 600cc 2 cylinder direct injected 2 stroke to power that "Adventure bike" format you're pondering...? :evil
    #2
  3. wiggywildwildwest

    wiggywildwildwest cranky bugger

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    one of those 600 arctic cat donks looks like the go. what sort of trans does a snowmobile have ? i was looking at 360-380 ish euro 2 smokers. it's interesting to look at the success with the aprillia scooters. maybe they are using them as a test bed ?
    #3
  4. Hunsta

    Hunsta Have guns will hunt

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    DRJoe to the white coutesy phone. This guy could tell you what could be hooked up. Surprised if he hasnt tried it already.
    Been thinking 2 stroke myself lately. However thinking DT175.:lol3 Im a sadist. I know.
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  5. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    Most modern snowmobiles/ATV's use various forms of CVT transmissions... well suited to the snowmobile application... but the wieght of these auto transmissions are a bit hefty for a motorcycle application... and while they work well in the cooler conditions... don't tend to like the heat (ie: desert apploications). So for an adventure bike, coupling one of these type powerplants to a conventional cassette style 6 speed gearbox would be pretty good I reckon.

    Artic Cat (as you mentioned them) currently have a 800cc FI 2 stroke (paralell twin) that reputedly puts out 160 hp! :huh (I'm guessing thats at the output shaft... ie; BEFORE the transmission?). But given those figures, imagine scaling the the thing back down to a 600cc twin and you could (conservatively) have 80 - 90 hp in a lightweight/performance two stroke package... slip that into something like a 690 R chassis for me please! :D

    Way back in the 90's, I often wondered about the potential of Yamaha's 350cc (parallel twin 2 stroke) Banshee (Quad) motor... those things were light, responsive and heaps of sting. Look at the performance of the various Kawasaki parallel twin 2 stroke Jetski donks also (550cc and 650cc). The horses they get out of those things really rip.

    As far as 300cc 2 strokes go... I wouldn't be surprised to see any of the current 2 stroke enduro manufacturers (like Husqvarna, Husaberg or GasGas) come out with a FI 300 cc 2 stroke for 2012...
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  6. KASUYAHO

    KASUYAHO Road Hog

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    With the 2 stroke outboards they have direct injection etc.
    Economical but the problem is the exhaust exits the burnt 2 stroke oil.
    Oil does not burn that well so oil goes into the water.
    Put your hand behind a 2 stroke engine exhaust while it is running and you will get a film of oil on your hand.
    So there going 4 stroke out boards.

    I know the latest 2 stroke direct injected outboards were more economical than the old non direct injected by a long way.
    If the were more economical than the latest 4 stroke outboards.
    I could not tell the answer to that.
    My guess would be yes.

    I am not sure if this is right but i heard that lawn mowers in the USA have to be 4 stroke because of EPA.
    Correct me if i am wrong.

    Apparently companies like Honda who sell more bikes and the like of KTM,
    tougher enviromental restrictions are on them.

    Honda did try a 500cc 2 stroke as a test bed to see how it would go in Dakar.
    But 4 stroke became the choice again.

    I think the 2 stroke would be cool as a ADV bike,
    light and go like stink,
    would it ever become into production i very much doubt it.
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  7. exoff-roadgoat

    exoff-roadgoat Will ride for food

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    I think with the exception of Califorina two stroke engines are still legal. I think a old air cooled Yamaha single in a newer frame/suspension would rock. I love the sounds and smell of two strokes, I'll have to fire up my smoker Toro snow blower today if the weather lady has her prediction right.:cry
    #7
  8. A_Vasiliev

    A_Vasiliev M-ass-ter Craftsman

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    Hmmm, I wonder if they make WR transmissions for the CR500...
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  9. DrunkWombat

    DrunkWombat GS and Proud

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    Snow mobiles have a belt drive primary (from clutch) to final drive, actuated centrifugally by springs. Think Vespa scooter rideability. But 800cc...

    Fuel consumption is still high, but they are still very light. I did a bit of reading on using one of these motors.

    http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/04/21/tul-aris-two-stroke-racer/

    http://www.motorbyte.com/norton/Tularis.htm

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/02/06/tss-rs500-2-stroke-twin-update/


    Anyways, why not try these mad fuckers in Cairns?

    http://www.twostrokeshop.com/index.htm
    #9
  10. slowbike smallpenis

    slowbike smallpenis Tester of Tooheys Old

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    [​IMG]

    Interesting how technology can advance - The much prematurely lauded Vdue from Bimota kinda had a fair hand in sending them broke.
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  11. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    Cagiva offered this 125 two stroke version of their "Lucky explorer" Elefant back in the early 90's...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #11
  12. peter650

    peter650 Been here awhile

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    I am building a ADV bike out off a DT400.14 years ago {before kids}i had a 76 rd400 as my only transport.It was heaps of fun on dirt roads.I have a Varadero and a KLR650 now but i cant wait to get back on a 2 stroke.
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  13. A_Vasiliev

    A_Vasiliev M-ass-ter Craftsman

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    That actually sounds pretty cool. Fresh engine rebuild, forged piston so you get better reliability, port and polish for a little more power, beefed up frame, front suspension swap along with a modern disc brake (off a YZ250?), maybe slightly redone rear suspension...

    :evil
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  14. wiggywildwildwest

    wiggywildwildwest cranky bugger

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    i reckon a DT400 motor in a newer frame might be the go. i don't know how you'd register it though. the bit of reading i did suggests the 4 stroke outboards were not overly well received due to weight, complexity and cost.

    i was also led to believe the di stuff uses an oil pump to pump minute amounts of oil under the piston to keep things alive.
    #14
  15. -KATO-

    -KATO- '690R'

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  16. A_Vasiliev

    A_Vasiliev M-ass-ter Craftsman

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    What about an older Yamaha WR500?
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  17. tHEtREV

    tHEtREV Captain Awesome

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    Have thought about building a 2 stroke adventure bike, but at 11k per Litre it kind of killed my enthusiasm.

    I did read an article in an old ADB about a guy who did a fair chunk of Australia on a KDX200.

    Said he got 13K per L and was using the standard tank with two 5L jerrys, so it can be done.

    As for direct injection I have my doubts.

    It was rumoured that Honda EXP2 Dakar and Baja 1000 bikes drank just as much juice as a four stroke, but with two stroke power.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Although Honda's attempt seemed more to do with an exhaust valve than direct injection (bearing in mind that Honda could release any information they wanted to protect there innovations and investments).

    [​IMG]

    But if they did solve the fuel consumption and emission issues why did they can the project?

    I know Soichiro Honda was a bit anti two stroke (think NR500) but surly old prejudices would die in the face of race (and possibly economic) success.

    After all, it would be a big advantage on a 500 GP bike to only carry half the fuel of the opposition.

    But the other side to the economic argument is that there is less two wear out on a two stroke and therefore less of a spares market.

    And the spare parts market is where the money is, have you tried looking at the price a bike would be if you bought it piece by piece?

    Henry Ford was once quoted as saying that he would give every American a car if he could get some sort of grantee that they would only buy spares from him.

    While everyones eyes are turning to KTM for the next development in two stroke technology Ossa snuck in through the back door and released the Direct injection TR280i trials bike and have announced plans for an enduro model (also with Direct injection) to follow in the next year or two.

    [​IMG]

    So we are getting closer, but my question is why a trials bike?

    Is it because trials bikes generally sit in the lower part of the rev range, just like boats, and it has been proven on boats?

    Do snow mobiles generally sit in the upper part of there rev range like bikes do (8 or 9000 RPM)?

    Or have they only gotten DI to work at lower revs?

    I honestly don't know the answer to those questions, boats and snow mobiles could rev to the moon as far as I know, and trials bikes might spend most of there time with there tits being revved of.

    For all I know Ossa could have it sussed, Honda may have just had to much pride and a spare parts devision that was looking a bit lazy, and Rotax ( who is owned by Bombardier, and is already making DI snow mobile and boat engines, as well as carbed 2 stroke bike engines) is just waiting for the right moment and customer to release its DI bike engine to (imagine a DI Aprillia RS500).

    I love 2 strokes, and I would love to see them make a come back in a more efficient form, but I'm just very sceptical, just the same as I am about a 690 ADV or WR450r, I'd like to see it, but I have been disappointed before.

    And while I will keep one eye on KTM for the next development in two stroke technology, I'll be keeping my good eye on the only Japanese manufacture that hasn't abandoned the two stroke engine.

    After all I'm sure we have all heard the rumours that Yamaha are bringing back the old WR250Z, and if anyone can do it, Yamaha with its long and successful history of two stroke innovations, has to be the odds on favourite.
    #17
  18. peter650

    peter650 Been here awhile

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    Yamaha lost the plot with the YZ490 motor.The WR500 was a rehashed YZ490 motor.For a 2 stroke ADV bike you want a low tune trail bike motor with a small carb.Not a MX based motor.
    #18
  19. A_Vasiliev

    A_Vasiliev M-ass-ter Craftsman

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    Mmmm. Damn.
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  20. peter650

    peter650 Been here awhile

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    Sorry about that. The thing is the 2 stroke trail bike motor small carb set up might not be fast.But you can ride them up a wall if you have to.If a bike will sit on 90klm down a dirt road i am happy these days.At one stage i put a aircooled KX500 motor into the RD400 frame.It would get to 140klm in the blink of a eye.Great fun but not a ADV bike.Cheers Peter
    #20