2008 KTM 690 Enduro stalling / no start AND cannisterectomy help please

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by alongat, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    So my bike is currently apart chasing the dreaded occasional stall / won't start again / wait anywhere between 3 - 20 minutes for restart issues. Once in a while, it stalls and then I can't restart it until I wait some insane, undefined period of time - perhaps could be a clogged fuel filter overloading and overheating the fuel pump as I've read is suspected in other threads of similar symptoms...

    1- I've taken the fuel pump out and all looks good
    2- I am off to my local auto parts store to get a generic fuel filter replacement (and hose clamps) instead of the KTM OEM unit (which looks quite dark - assuming it's dirty)
    3- the screen at the bottom of the fuel pump seems clean and perfect - no black or white debris as described in other threads - literally looks brand new
    4- everything inside the tank seems as it should be and clean - no dirt or anything else came out, no loose hoses, etc...

    Well, since I have the bike half-apart, I noticed that the previous owner did what I would call a "partial cannisterectomy" - one of the hoses that comes out of the charcoal canister is bent over and tie-wrapped to seal itself - no idea if this is right or not but I thought while I'm in there and have everything apart, I might as well remove as much unwanted emissions stuff like the canister, etc but I couldn't find any threads that describe the required parts, process and hopefully some pictures to help me along.


    Can anyone share a link or something with me while I'm at this today? For reference, the bike is a 2008 690 Enduro with an FMF Apex muffler and an aftermarket air filter (foam, two round chambers, well-oiled - brand unknown) and the bike has a three position switch mounted on the handlebar for engine map switching...

    Thanks in advance everyone

    Thanks in advance
    #1
  2. SKINNY

    SKINNY Been here awhile

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    #2
  3. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    Thanks for the link.

    Update: I changed the fuel filter with a different one similar to the NAPA filter I've seen in other threads. Bike started with no issue and I let it idle for the "15 minute reset". Within one minute, it stalled so I restarted it and started the clock again. It stayed idling properly for literally 15 minutes and 35 seconds then the idle began to hunt a bit, it decreased than it stalled. I restarted it, it idled low with some hunting and then stalled. I threw my wrench at the wall and put the bike back in the garage.

    Now what? Any ideas? I'm afraid to try to ride it to my "local" KTM dealer for diagnosis (somewhat because I don't want to get stranded on the road and somewhat because most dealers do very little to diagnose problems and would rather just charge time and material for throwing new parts onto the bike).

    A few other notable things (perhaps notable):
    - The pump makes its priming sound each time I go to start the bike.
    - I didn't notice any dimming of the headlight and the battery appears to be strong and healthy
    - I have no idea what else to report

    Any ideas???

    Thanks again everyone
    #3
  4. SKINNY

    SKINNY Been here awhile

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    Check the fuel line connections at the pump...more than one person has found leaking connections that will allow starting, but bleed down below acceptable pressure after a while...

    Some fuel pumps have wiring problems....
    try a new fuel pump...
    have the dealer check to see what map is installed for the FI and EPT
    #4
  5. Velociraptor

    Velociraptor TrackBum

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    Pump may be bad. Also injector could be clogged. Also could be electrical. Several inmates have had problems with bad rectifiers or poor coil connections.
    I had one ride where bike kept stalling out and ended up being loose coil connection but seemed like a fuel issue.
    #5
  6. bobzilla

    bobzilla Dirty Old Man

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    throttle position sync MUST be done in addition to other things

    replace the spark plug...the 690 is sensitive to spark issues. also look at the plug cap...mine was cracked

    clean injector. if i open the line after or at the inline filter i disconnect the injector and flow a bit of fuel through....the hole in the injector is so small you will never see the shit that clogges it.

    the last problem I had was stalling and it turned out to be the main/starter relay going bad. I would try the other things first starting with the throttle sync
    good luck
    #6
  7. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    argh ! ! ! ! ! ! !
    #7
  8. SigPig

    SigPig Been here awhile

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    Agreed.

    My 690's fuel pump was failing intermittently and then stopped working all together. When replaced, the new pump fired up and the bike started. During the initialization cycle the bike died after only two minutes of idling. It will no longer start. There is a clicking noise from under the air box somewhere. The fuel pump still hums every time now where as the old one would not turn on at all so that is no longer the issue. It seems to have come up with a new problem now. Needless to say, I am very frustrated as well.

    PS: I have just over 5000 kms on this bike. The only performance mod was replacing the fire hazard stock pipe with a Wings and Akra remap which was at around 1500 kms. Everything was working perfectly until I rolled 5k.
    #8
  9. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    I'm taking off the FMF Apex muffler and putting the stock furnace back on to see if there is a difference...who knows - stranger things have happened...maybe a lack of back pressure is creating a lean mixture and fouling things once it runs for a bit.
    #9
  10. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    Update:

    FMF Apex muffler removed and original thermo-nuclear reactor installed. I did the 15 minute reset run on it -
    1- it did not stall within the first minute as it's been doing lately (though when it has stalled within that first minute lately, it restarted immediately)
    2- it ran the entire 15 minutes glitch-free with a steady / consistent idle speed
    3- after 15 minutes, I shut it down and restarted it several times with no issues

    WTF? I guess it really needs some back-pressure from the catalyst and the muffler design itself. I have no idea which map is loaded on the bike but I am prepared to try having my dealer load the Akrapovic map for the bike since it accommodates for less back-pressure. Could it be this simple? The most annoying things in life often are solved with simple solutions, aren't they? In any case, I believe that I am prepared to rule out the fuel pump at this point - check all electrical connections and inquire with my dealer about that optional map. Any other suggestions or words of wisdom?
    #10
  11. SKINNY

    SKINNY Been here awhile

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    I'd have the stock map re-installed and see if it will run with the FMF...then try the Akro....
    #11
  12. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    Good advice - thank you.
    #12
  13. SnapCracklePop

    SnapCracklePop Re-Noobified

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    I wanted to keep mine quiet , but try to get rid of the heat so I drilled out the cat inside the muffler.
    It stayed pretty quiet (quieter than my FMF Q4) but started stalling intermittently, and 'hunting' about at low rpms.
    I did the 15-min idle thing , didn't help (it has the Akra mapping) .
    I put the Q4 back on and it runs perfectly.

    It really seems to me that it needs the backpressure to run right.
    tho as always , YMMV. :hmmmmm
    #13
  14. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    Another Update:

    Went for a slightly longer ride and it almost conked out on me. While waiting at a red light, the engine began to run up in temps (as expected) and I swear that when the fan kicked in (with two bars left up top of the temp range - as it always does with the stock temp / fan switch), it started to idle lower and then started to make its way toward a stall. I immediately gave it gas and kept the revs up. What I then noticed on the rest of the ride was that when the fan kicked in, when I revved it past idle, there was an obvious change in fan speed. I would expect some change but not as significant as it seemed to me. This suggests something like some power starvation / decrease in output to support the fan. If this is correct, I will bet that the fuel pump is also seeing a drop in current and perhaps that is what is causing the bike to stall (or even spark or anything else that is current-dependent). I am going to have a closer look at diagnosing the stator and battery tomorrow. I wouldn't hurt to check the condition of all grounding points and other vital electrical connections...

    Anyone have any experience with stalling relating to low voltage from stator and/or battery performance / condition?

    Thanks again - especially for letting me use this crowd as a sounding board and source of experience.
    #14
  15. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    ARGH ARGH ARGH - I'm going to have an aneurism ! ! ! !

    So I can now confirm that when this stall and no-start business occurs, the pump is NOT priming the system as when everything is fine.

    Does this help or sound familiar??? Please...my dealer is awe-struck and lost...
    #15
  16. Velociraptor

    Velociraptor TrackBum

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    Sounds like either the pump is dying or some upstream electrical issue so no juice getting to the pump. Are all the other electrical systems working (that you can check) when this happens?
    #16
  17. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    Everything else works with no apparent issues. It's really strange - I rode 40 minutes at 130 kph on the highway today without a single glitch and then literally as soon as I exited the highway and hit the red light at the off ramp, it stalled and I had to wait nearly ten minutes before it started again. On the way home, same thing - flawless performance on the highway and then as soon as I was in stop and go traffic, it started stalling and not starting again. This leads me to believe that there may be a power starvation issue at idle (or near idle at low revs) - perhaps exacerbated by the current draw of the rad fan. I am going to unplug the stator tonight and measure its output to see if I can rule that out. Does anyone know how to measure and determine the health of a stator?

    If I had any hair, I would pull it all out...
    #17
  18. bobzilla

    bobzilla Dirty Old Man

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    so you think its a electrical problem of low voltage at low rpm.........right?
    but only after it gets hot................. right
    you think it may be the stator is not putting out enough voltage/current at idle............? right

    check the reg rectifier when hot.....that is the time you will notice beginning stages of rr failure


    truth is there are many things that can go wrong with a fi bike that have similar symptoms
    the more you can narrow it down the better you can trouble shoot it without as some have put it "throwing parts at it

    i have had symptoms similar to yours with:
    fuel pump beginning to fail
    fuel pump hose knotted from the pump coming out of the holder
    dirty injector
    fouled plug (how do you foul a plug on a fi bike?? wtf)
    cracked plug cap and doggy wire
    master starter relay
    low battery
    good luck :lol3
    #18
  19. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    With what little mechanical knowledge I have, I sort of believe it is electrical related - also somehow related to heat. Again, 40 minutes at 130kph on the highway without missing a single beat (assuming the rad fan never ran during that run) and then as soon as I get off the highway for a red light, bam!

    I will figure out how to check the stator and regulator rectifier but you're right in saying that it will need to get right up to high temps when I do test them...somehow...
    #19
  20. alongat

    alongat Long timer

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    I ran a multimeter on it just now. Over 14 volts at rest, hardly any change when I turn the ignition on, no drop below 12.6 volts when cranking, running steady at 14.x volts when idling and higher RPMs. I let the bike run for 20 minutes at idle, letting it get good and hot and measured voltage - no change. I turned the bike off, good high voltage over 14V, cranked and started it again, no issues. I'm guessing my battery and stator / regulator rectifier are doing their job as designed.

    Incidentally, the bike did not stall or not-start this time despite getting hot, etc.

    I'm losing my mind...
    #20