2011 R1200GSA misfire or stall?

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by CandyMan_ZA, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Bill the Bong

    Bill the Bong Supern00ba

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    Shit. Have they actually done a diagnostics check on the 2 knock sensors? Just hookin the bike up to the diagnostics will not show an issue, they need to test them specifically. My one knock sensor was actually loose, that caused the issue during blipping. Knocking during accelleration between 4500 - 5500 rpm was caused by the flap partially closing.
    #41
  2. Dan-M

    Dan-M Long timer

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    I see this more and more in cars. A special tool to align cams then the sprockets are locked in place via friction. No dowels or keys.
    It makes for fool-proof cam timing when replacing chains or other timing components but the equipment cost if you are working on multiple brands is high.
    #42
  3. f00gami

    f00gami n00b

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    Kevin - I think you might be on to several issues at once with your bike. Some might or might not be related to the local fuel quality or possibly a bad component on your bike. What really caught my attention was the fact that your managed to reproduce the “erratic idle” behavior on multiple bikes, including the yellow 2012 loaner.

    I myself own a 2010 R1200GSA which runs great and shows no signs of misfires/pinging, stalling or bad behavior when blipping the throttle. However, today I decided to subject my bike to the same procedure as you do in your youtube clips i.e. opening the throttle grip just very slightly past the point of resistance... :evil

    The outcome was very much the same as yours; very soon the idle got erratic and the engine was close to stalling on several occasions. Once I released the throttle grip, the idle stabilized.

    Using the GS-911 I recorded some engine parameters during two cases; 1) Normal undisturbed idling and 2) Idling with throttle grip very slightly open. Please see this PDF-file for the measurement graphs.

    Page 1 shows the undisturbed idle – note that all parameters are stable (except lambda voltage, which exhibits normal closed-loop behavior).

    Page 2 shows what happens as the throttle grip is opened very slightly. Note that…

    • Lambda voltage quickly bottoms out -> indication of a leaner mixture
    • The idle stepper motors (which control the amount of air allowed to bypass the throttle plate) soon bottom out at 0.
    • The throttle position sensor (TPS) constantly indicates fully closed throttle, even though applying pressure to the throttle grip surely will cause the throttle plate to open slightly.
    • At t=110s, the idle steppers have bottomed out and engine speed starts fluctuating heavily – engine is close to stalling.
    My conclusion is that the erratic idle issue which occurs with prolonged small throttle grip openings is caused by the idle speed control logic of BMS-K (engine control) becoming unstable. While applying pressure to the throttle grip, you are letting a bit more air into the engine. As our bikes have no Air Mass Meter, BMS-K must estimate the amount of air entering the engine from engine speed and throttle plate position (the TPS signal). However, as the TPS does not seem to register this very minute movement of the throttle plate, the system has no idea of what you are doing and cannot adjust fueling and ignition timing accordingly. Hence you have effectively created an intake air leak.

    As more air enters the engine, the average idle speed starts rising ever so slowly (and the mixture goes lean). The idle steppers will react to the increase in engine speed and start compensating to bring the idle back to 1150 rpm. Once the steppers bottom out, the BMS-K regulator goes unstable.

    In this respect I assume you could argue that BMW is right in saying that this is “in line with the character” of our bikes, as every DOHC R1200 will exhibit this behavior (if I’m right). However, this should not be the reason for the other issues you mention such as pinging and engine stalling during throttle blips.
    #43
  4. CandyMan_ZA

    CandyMan_ZA R1200GS-WP

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    wow, great data! :thumb let me process what I am looking at, thank you f00gami
    #44
  5. CandyMan_ZA

    CandyMan_ZA R1200GS-WP

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    f00gami, this was such a great response, I really appreciate your effort, one cannot argue with such facts :deal there is a most peculiar thing happening here, it can be argued if this is and 'by design' and acceptable? :dunno I don't however know if this is what is happening when I blip the throttle and the engine stalls, as you indicated it may be another issue altogether? Are you able to reproduce the ping/knock condition when you 'blip' your GSA, if so are you able to also provide these same graphs when that happens? It may be difficult to reproduce what I experience while riding but it only happens when I blip the throttle, such as in traffic when warning motorists of my presence, when I pull away from a standstill, downshifting or while I am riding technical stuff, however it 'sounds' and 'feels' exactly the same as when I blip the throttle as in the video clips I posted earlier.
    #45
  6. f00gami

    f00gami n00b

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    In my driving style, I usually apply throttle blips during gear changes to rev match (just an "old" habit). Although I've never ever experienced engine stalls on my bike, this may be due to our riding styles being different. I completely agree with you that stalling under these circumstances is unacceptable.

    Bliping the throttle harshly when my bike is idling DOES occasionally make the first detonation mis, or at least make it sound very harsh. In my daily work I work with engine control software but not that close to combustion control. Hence I'm not an combustion expert and have attributed the behavior of the R1200 engine during very very rapid "blips" to
    - wire throttle in combination with the EFI system (compared to a system with an electronic throttle module) and
    - a lean A/F ratio (due to modern emission requirements).

    I guess the easy way to make the engine run richer is to fit the well-known Accelerator Cable, which essentially modifies the engine intake air temperature sensor value to be somewhat lower. Most posts on the internet regarding the Accelerator Cable have been quite positive in terms of improving low-end torque. However I have no idea if it would cure the response to throttle blips.

    Something which might be interesting to try is bliping the throttle in netural from a slightly open position rather than from fully closed. Will the system react differently then?
    #46
  7. CandyMan_ZA

    CandyMan_ZA R1200GS-WP

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    I concur :gerg

    I am convinced this is the issue, however I don't understand why Triumph and KTM (also EU) do not display any of these characteristics in any way, not even slightly :dunno

    I have considered this and very willing to try it however it will void my warranty and it is quite expensive to import and 'try' if it makes no difference to the throttle blips. Same with a PC.

    I will try this again and report back but I have never experienced this if my memory serves me right. When blipping as I am about to engage gear when pulling away the throttle is in the fully closed position but when blipping during a downshift or while in traffic or while riding technical staff is another story, it is difficult to say if that is from a complete closed position, I will have to consciously take note of what I do and see if I can determine this. I will report back.

    Thank you :thumb
    #47
  8. CandyMan_ZA

    CandyMan_ZA R1200GS-WP

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    I tried the blip test while my bike was stationary and in neutral, if I have the rpm at 1500 or anything higher it picks up revs instantly and smoothly, only when I blip the throttle from an idle (ie. 1150rpm) does it periodically cough and splutter (due to lack of the correct technical term that is happening :dunno) before it picks up revs.
    #48
  9. stan23

    stan23 Been here awhile

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    I know the idle is stepper motor controlled, but can the GS911 set idle speed? Maybe something like 200 rpms higher will solve your issue?
    #49
  10. CandyMan_ZA

    CandyMan_ZA R1200GS-WP

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    It may very well resolve the 'erratic idle' as well as the 'intermittent splutter or stall on a throttle blip' but...:dunno

    ...will this be the correct way to fix it, the engine will still be running way too lean!? If so BMW need to do a recall :deal and up the idle on all the R1200GS DOHC models :dunno

    The correct fix is that BMW provide a proper working efficient and correct A/F map, simple :thumb
    #50
  11. f00gami

    f00gami n00b

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    Nominal idle speed cannot be adjusted using the GS-911, not as of today anyway.

    On BMW cars, there are service routines in the official service computers to make adjustments (add offsets) to nominal idle speed. I am unsure if similar functionality has been implemented by Motorrad.

    /Gabriel
    #51
  12. CandyMan_ZA

    CandyMan_ZA R1200GS-WP

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    Hi guys, this matter has still not been resolved. BMW South Africa are defiant and will not acknowledge that there is any issue. I still have this problem and have been contacted by many other riders who also experience this intermittent 'misfire' (or pre-ignition, detonation) on their 1200GS's. This seems to be more specific to the DOHC models and more so here in South Africa (although others have reported similar symptoms). I would like to post this to a German BMW motorcycle club forum and see if anyone there has an 'inside' technical contact in BMW Germany.

    Most frustrating :baldy

    Kevin
    Cape Town
    South Africa
    #52
  13. freedomracer

    freedomracer n00b

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    I've had the same problem here in the US, 2011 GSA stalling occasionally when coming off idle with the clutch lever pulled in at traffic lights. It's at the dealer's now, after stalling while slowing down and not being able to restart it. of course it started right up when it got to the shop...
    #53
  14. CandyMan_ZA

    CandyMan_ZA R1200GS-WP

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    Hiya feedomracer, you may be experiencing something different to what I am, even though my bike (and the others I have ridden) do sometimes stall when coming off idle with the clutch fully in they have always started right up afterwards. Please come back here and let us know what the dealer said.

    Kevin
    #54
  15. CandyMan_ZA

    CandyMan_ZA R1200GS-WP

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    A number of people have asked if this issue was ever resolved. My quick response is I no longer have this problem. In my longer response I am afraid they will ban me from this forum as I will have a lot to say about BMW Motorrad :baldy. I got rid of the 2011 ADV and bought a 2009 ADV. The 2009 is the last of the SOHC model. It runs sweet, same as my 2004 and 2007 did. Every single DOHC R1200GS (Standard and ADV) I rode experienced this same occasional erratic throttle response, misfire, pre-ignition and pinging :dunno
    #55
  16. Fibzzz

    Fibzzz Resident Cynic

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    I have an '11 GSA that has never stalled, but does occasionally bog momentarily when I crack the throttle to match revs while downshifting. I chalked it up to the character of the engine, and found it likes "rolling" the throttle a bit more deliberately, instead of a rapid blip. I very rarely experience the issue now, and it's never seemed like a serious flaw. I've ridden enough old Harleys to know what REAL fueling/carburetion flaws feel like!

    I apologize for the hijack, but I'm curious why rev-matching with the throttle on downshifts is no longer "necessary" or appropriate. I've been riding that way since I was 12 years old, to use engine braking without the abrupt engagement of a lower gear, and figuring it was easier on my clutch and trans. What am I missing?
    #56
  17. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid!

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    This forum is not associated with BMW Motorad. You can say what you like.

    That said, be factual, and no gnashing of teeth if you expect to betaken seriously.

    Jim :brow

    PS You should know this since you have been here since 2004.:deal
    #57
  18. DSTEVENS

    DSTEVENS Been here awhile

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    My 2013 will stall occasionally if you blip the throttle from idle, it seems to only do it when there is someone to watch me restart it. And on occasion it has acted like it has a massive racing cam, at stop lights it has done this twice. Shakes sputters and spits, and I usually throttle it a little and it will go away and run fine for weeks or months, and then do it again. 4300 miles. Very little oil consumption too, so I am so happy. Best wishes. D.
    #58
  19. kk3an

    kk3an Adventurer

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    I also had a very pronounced detonation / pre-detonation issue caused by throttle blips with my '13 GSA.

    Removed the exhaust flap and the problem went away 100%. No throttle body sync, no nothing - just replaced the exhaust flap with a straight section of pipe and the issue was gone.

    Dan
    #59
  20. DSTEVENS

    DSTEVENS Been here awhile

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    Hey Dan, just wondering about removing exhaust valve, does it start or run different? I like the idea of more noise, I love the sound after mine gets hot, it seems to make more noise the warmer the outside temp. I started it under the gas station roof after 3 hours of 80mph in 106* temps and I thought muffler had came loose it was so loud. Excuse hijack please:D D.
    #60