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Discussion in 'Shiny Things' started by hayduke357, Sep 30, 2012.
IMO they are ok. Not as nice as the previous generation though.
When it is on you are supposedly getting best economy. You'll find it comes on under light throttle, such as when lightly accelerating or maintaining steady speed. I call it the fun meter, because when the eco icon is lit you aren't having any fun
This. A lot of modern vehicles have it, comes on with less than about 20% throttle use.
If you ask me, the modern Wranglers are total junk. A piss poor design, from the extensive use of plastic all the way through the electronic gas peddle (seriously, the lag is a pain in the ass, even in an auto!). If I ever buy one, that's the first thing to go, just because of the lag, my 2.5L gets up and putts a lot easier and quicker.
I loved my YJ too, from the perspective of a raw, utilitarian vehicle. But there's no comparison in capability. I was amazed with my basically stock '09 Rubicon in Moab last October. It got up to 23 mpg indicated (about 21.5 real mpg) during the 4000 + mile round trip, and took a pretty unbelievable beating for the week I was there. I had no mechanical issues whatsoever. Comparing the ride quality, I think I would have needed a kidney transplant if I had tackled the same trails in a YJ.
As for throttle lag, I'm thinking you haven't driven a JK with the 3.6 Pentastar. The issue you complain of was intrinsic to the 3.8, which was the combination of a comparatively slow revving engine and heavy flywheel effect. I had two JK's with that engine - a 2007 Sahara, and the 2009 Rubicon. In both cases the jeeps were plenty reliable and didn't have much in the way of issues. While I wouldn't call it the ideal powertrain for a Wrangler, my '94 YJ and '97 TJ ate a lot more parts. For comparison's sake, I purchased all of these jeeps new and all were maintained according to the recommendations in the owner's manual.
I'd like to call you an idiot and stomp up and down and tell you how dumb you are... But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
To intelligently debate the topic, I- to a degree- see where you are coming from. I think the "modern" Jeep started with the TJ and the integration of a proper HVAC system and a more sophisticated suspension design.
Now when discussing the electronic gas pedal, that is something I'd think was more emissions related. The days of a truly simple and utilitarian vehicle are passed us as they simply cannot touch the reduced emissions put out by "modern" vehicle technology.
Now on the JK in particular and whether it is junk or not based on the prodigious use of plastic and general "piss poor design". I guess I'm a little confused. Um, in general design principle, it is the same design as the YJ, just better; body on frame, solid axles, 2 speed part time T case. It's the same all way down to the removable doors and steering design.
Sticking to those original principles who's primary purpose were to facilitate functionality and capability, the JK is as many years apart literally from the YJ as it is in terms of what it can do out of the box. Never before the Rubicon model were such low gears offered with the big engine, never before was a 4 to 1 low range offered, never before were lockers offered, never before was a sway bar disconnect offered, never before was a Dana 44 offered in the front (I don't think even any of the CJs had a 44 at the front from the factory), etc.
Just because it has a number of modern amenities and safety features like airbags and a stereo that functions over 25 mph with the top off, and worthwhile AC for when it is on, doesn't make it a bad vehicle.
Therefore, with those things in mind, IMO, the JK is significantly better. When I bought my YJ, I wanted to be Marlboro man and build mine to be cool. Now, I simply purchased and did the most rudimentary of modifications to the JK and it is infinitely more capable and FUNCTIONAL (it actually can tow, haul the family, get acceptable economy) than my YJ could ever have been for the same money.
I guess I'm getting older and don't want to buy a stripped down machine and build it (WAY too much $$$) and prefer now to get what I'd like out of the box- and they now offer all that I want out of the box.
Fly by wire throttle - or the electronic gas pedal as it's being referred to here - provides a multitude of features you simply can't get with a cable. The silliness of poo-pooing this technology probably has a direct correlation to the level of knowledge - or lack thereof - about the technology.
Once manufacturers got away from carburetors you lost any mechanical control you had over fuel delivery. Even in that 1989 YJ with TBI, fuel delivery was controlled by the computer. The only thing your foot did when you stepped on the gas pedal was open a butterfly valve in the throttle body to allow more AIR into the engine. The fuel injection system sensors send data to the computer, and THE COMPUTER decides how much fuel to deliver.
The only fundamental difference with fly by wire throttle is the computer also runs a servo on the throttle body that it uses to adjust airflow into the engine based on data obtained from a sensor connected to the gas pedal. This technology is sound and has been in production applications for many years. Beyond emissions the benefits are huge. Throttle curves can be tuned or retuned as needed for either linear response or curved response. The "feel", or tension of the gas pedal is no longer dictated by springs on the throttle body or friction of a cable. There is built in double redundancy into the system, so that even if a sensor fails the system will still work. It pretty much takes a catastrophic failure to disable it.
OK. I've had a little bit of time to go over this thing in the daylight now. I'm going to critique it a bit. I'm not one to say it's the best just because I own it .
I don't get the spaghetti exhaust loop on the driver's side. I noticed that AEV catalog said you had to remove it if you were going to install their 3.5" lift. I'm sure there is a reason for it but it looks almost like they had some extra exhaust tube they needed to get rid of so they made it fit. Reminds me of some of the brass bands I played in as a teenager:huh
Also, the swaybar disconnect. Come on Jeep. Let's try and keep it simple. I don't mind pulling a pin. What I do mind is some heavy overly complex mecanismo like this:
I mean, this is a Jeep. This is not an Airbus A320. I'll take simple everytime
Now the driveshafts...I've seen log-skidders with punier driveshafts than this thing. They are MASSIVE. This is not a critique of the driveshafts, only an observation
I don't get the throttle power delay people are talking about. I picked up a used 2011 JK unlimited about a month ago with a 6 speed manual and 3.8L. When I apply power and release the clutch there is no delay. The only delay is at highway speeds and that is not due to the throttle. It's due to lack of power. When I'm running 75 down the highway and want to pass, there is nothing left to pass with. Of course I sold an Audi S4 that had a 340hp V8 in it that I am comparing to. A touch of the throttle at 75 with that car and you'd be doing triple digits in no time. Wish I had that motor in the Jeep.
You don't have to remove the exhaust to use their kit. You do have to either install an exhaust spacer kit, or have the exhaust loop modified so it clears the front driveshaft when the suspension is fully extended.
Let me know if you break that swaybar disconnect system. While I've read about the occasional issue, I loved not having to get out and dick around with greasy sway bar disconnects at each trailhead when I was in Moab. The two other couples Candi and I went out there with were certainly happy they'd installed disconnects on their Jeeps, but also mentioned that pushing a button would have been really nice. Though I didn't keep my last Rubicon for a ton of miles, I had no issues whatsoever with that system.
i believe this is correct. Look at the seats, steering wheel, dash, and overall lack of padding in an early (pre '76) CJ. The driver will fail before the Dana 30 in the front does. I never broke mine in the '74 even with an ARB air locker. I did, however, bend up the tie rod more than once
lack of a 44 in the front is what made junked IH Scouts so desirable to Jeepers. The Scouts got em
The throttle by wire is the coolest thing ever. Our new riding area has a very rough, steep, slippery mud/dirt road entrance/egress. I put the Wrangler in first or second gear, let out the clutch and just giggle as the computer revs the engine to make the climb. Even if you put on the brakes the engine will rev to try to keep from stalling for a long time. Also I found out if you are 4wd low you can start the engine with the clutch out. Cool cool cool,
The lag between the throttle peddle and the TB servo response was what I was referring to. That is why I will take a cable throttle any day. And this is coming from someone who has driven over 1000 vehicles equipped with the modern drive by wire type of throttle peddle assemble, from numerous makes and models.
Personally, I wouldn't drop 35 grand on a Jeep off of the factory floor. I'd rather build my Jeep to be the way I want it to be. But to each his own.
And iffin' you're hinting at coil springs somehow being superior, that is where you are wrong. There is no superior spring style.
I hate the JK for numerous reasons that I am too lazy and tired to list at the time of this posting, but if someone really wants I can post all of the reasons. I will say the new sound systems they include from the factory are probably some of the best systems out of any vehicle (that goes for all newer Chrysler vehicles).
When considering whether or not a spring type is "superior" over another, you have to consider what the desired characteristics are. Leafs are incredibly strong, but if you ask me which springs are better in a Wrangler I'd choose coils due to the superior ride quality. Not coincidentally, that's the reason most passenger vehicle manufacturers choose them too.
I think each version holds its own endearing qualities, from the small block Chevy equipped '48 Willys I lost my Jeep virginity with to the current '13 JKU I have now. I'd like to have one of each but that's not practical. One thing I can say with complete confidence is the current Wrangler is both the most capable Jeep ever made right off the showroom floor, and also the nicest, easiest, and most comfortable to live with every day. I think it's quite an accomplishment to build in that much off road capability while simultaneously making the most refined Wrangler ever made.
I totally hear you on this one. However, you cannot build a more capable machine for much less money. Lame, but effective example: A TJ Rubicon is about $15k or so unmolested. Lift (long arm) and 35" tires is $5k easy. Then gears are $1k. Then you might want to beef up the axles a touch ~$1k. Then you have the requisite other doo dads like a winch, some spare parts, storage system b/c storage is non existent in the TJ/YJ and you are at close to another $2k. This is for what is now a 7-8 year old vehicle.
OK, heck with that, let's go dirt cheap and do a YJ. Call it $5k for a decent one with a 4.0L. Depending on how crazy you go with the lift, you are still looking at $2k+ for lift and tires. Oh shoot, the D30 is generally poop for anything over 33s, so now I'm looking at anywhere from a grand to $6 grand for a built front axle and the same for the rear. And of course you gotta get the Atlas T case. At this point, you should be building a full cage and have correct seating. Oh yeah, don't forget the ARBs, compressor, gears, armor, storage, winch, etc. still on the docket.
With each of these, you can save some modicum of cash by doing your own work some of the fabrication, but at that point you are into a months long build minimum and I'd rather be out making memories than dreaming about them.
Also, in both cases you will still have something that rides like crap, can't tow much more than a lawn mower, handles for shit, and gets horrific economy while barely having enough room for 2 passengers. AND, in both cases, I'm in the same ballpark in terms of cost for a new JK. And I don't have the warranty, comfort, drivability, and at this point resale value of a JK.
ALSO, I'm to the point that for the amount of cash I've put out for the capability, I'm going to be a bit pissed when I bash it up on the Hammers, Fordyce, Dusy, or whatever other hardcore trails you'd want to hit with that capability.
If you want to keep either a TJ or YJ relatively stock, for the reasons I mentioned earlier, you won't be ANYWHERE close to the same capability in ANY category other than acquisition cost, which then turns it into an apples to oranges comparison as at that point you have different goals in mind.
In my opinion, the JK is a much more intelligent decision for someone with a family who is strapped for time and is perfectly happy with a new Rubicon that can do its namesake with very minimal modifications. Plus I drove close to 150 miles today taking both dogs, baby, and all the beach gear over to the coast. I got over 20mpg, set the cruise, listened to the satellite radio, had the heated seats on, and drove in perfect quiet comfort. And because it still is a Jeep, I didn't care that I put 2 stinky dogs in the back and whatnot.
The initial JKUR at a little over $30k was a bit steep and gutless for a what I refer to as a set of axles and a transfer case surrounded by mediocrity. The interior redesign in '11 coupled with the new techno heavy motor in '12 made it not only a very capable Jeep first and foremost, but also a very nice car.
Of course, this is all my opinion and the logic I used. I've not even touched the decision paradigm I used when introducing another car that is more practical for daily use where things like double the maintenance, space, insurance and registration hassles come into play...
So i picked up a used '11 SWB Rubicon hardtop 6-speed a few weekends ago. Gotta say, i love this thing so far. my prior experience is from a 1997 Wrangler sport 5-speed my mom bought new. She loved it, i found it fun for a nice day or so, then annoying after. No ac, noisy soft top and half doors, no cruise control, etc. I feel this JK has it where it counts, still relatively simple (no power window/locks, no leather, no navi) but has a stereo that can be heard, A/C, and it's freaking quiet inside even running the BFG mud terrains.
My other ride is a 1996 Toyota Land Cruiser with quite a few similarities (both have solid axles, coil sprung, pretty damn good suspension travel, full frames and most importantly both have diff locks front and rear ). the jeep may eventually replace the LC as the off-road toy, but even at 267,000 miles the LC keeps kicking. Honestly not sure if the JK will last that long.
Can't wait for the top/doors off warm weather!
Leaf Springs can ride just as comfortably as a coil spring setup. Clearly you have never been in a Jeep with a proper leaf spring setup. There's more than a large heap of Jeepers on a large Jeep Forum that can take you for a spin around the block to prove it.
Yes you can, there's dozens upon dozens of build threads out there of people building incredibly capable rigs for less than what you could buy a brand new TJ back in the day. You're not sourcing your parts properly if you think it's going to cost you $30K to build a Wrangler up.
A D30 is a lot stronger than you give it credit for. Lots of locals around me run it on 35" tires without issue, even running around places like Ocotillo or superstition regularly.
A dirt cheap YJ is $5k to you? Around here you could have a 2.5L with some 75K miles on it driven by a grandma for less than half of that, unmolested and rust free. Don't knock the 2.5L, it's got plenty of power for a trail rig, especially in low gear. There's Jeepers who are easily keeping up with the 6 cyl Jeeps with a 2.5L. It's all about the driver.
And you don't need half of what you list. An Atlast t-case is a luxury item, not a necessity. Lockers are optional (most would throw a lunchbox in the front and call it a day) and you can add to your existing cage very inexpensively and easily to effectively triple its strength.
A month? A MONTH? You think it takes us crazy fools a month to build a Jeep?
False. Again, you pick and choose your ride quality with the components YOU choose to buy. Buying cheap junk is going to give you a shit ride. Going with high quality components is going to greatly improve your ride quality. And like I said, leaf springs can ride just as smoothly as coil springs depending on the type of springs and shocks you go wit.
Not everyone runs Hammers, I personally wouldn't. But, if I'm building it, I'm building it to enjoy it. Who gives a flying f**** if you beat it up? It's a JEEP! It's made to take you places, money is only money. Sometimes you spend it on things to give you pleasure.
Agreed, Apples to Oranges. Obviously a Rubicon is more capable than a base model, so you can't compare a YJ to a TJ Rubicon, or a JK Rubicon. Comparing a TJ Rubicon to a JK Rubicon would be more on par.
To each his own. I personally don't like them. They feel more like a car and less like a Jeep.
Agreed, the 3.8L models are gutless. The 3.6L models are a lot peppier.
Like I said, it's all personal preference. I personally look for a project when I look for something to have fun with. If I bought a Jeep just as a DD I'd not be a very smart person, especially with the rising cost of gas and maintenance fees. I'd rather have something like an old POS Civic that gets 35mpg and is perfectly happy using used motor oil in the engine (or my KLR) that keeps me from spending a bundle and lets me have more funding for my projects
BUILT, NOT BOUGHT. :eek1
You sir are amazing! You can tell the difference between a few milliseconds of computing time and the few fractions of a second that it takes a carburetor to react! If you are ever in a position where because a vehicle will not go from idle to WOT in .2 seconds (except for some high end racing applications) then you made some major errors long before that point, not because of that point. I like you have a very numerous experience with many different years and types of vehicles including making parts and rebuilding said vehicles.
There "may" be a difference in reaction, but not a difference due to the electronic throttle (vs cable) that is able to be recognized by the human senses, but there are differences due to the mass of the flywheel and the speed of the rev increases that you may recognize from motor to motor.
I think this is the root of your complaints about the electronic throttle, if you don't like a vehicle you are much more apt to pick it apart and find complaints about it.
You sir are more than welcome to your opinions, just like we are ours, and I salute you for expressing them.
The throttle lag is definitely noticeable, and it's not the engine. The engines rev fine. It's even worse with the manuals because you don't get the instantaneous rev that I am so acquainted with, so your entire balance is thrown off.
It's not that. I can get used to it, there's just a metric shit ton of things about the new JK that I just don't like (how long until they go unibody to cut costs?).
Why thank you. I personally don't have a problem with other peoples opinions, because everyone's will vary. What I do have issue with is when someone's opinion is factually proven to be incorrect, yet they still go around picketing like it's the truth.
Enough with the nagging.
Anyone done a headlight upgrade to these things yet? I've read about the LED options that they can pulse or flash. The glass lensed euro (IPF? HELLA?) H4 setups. These seem much cheaper. Definitely better than the stock lamps.
I have worked on and been in some very well built CJ's with no expense spared (I turned wrenches for 20 years in a previous career). While improved considerably over stock, they don't offer the ride quality of a current generation JK
Around here a stripper rusted out YJ with 200,000 miles on it will bring $5k easy. If you want lower miles/no rust you're looking at $7500 +
That much is definitely true. They are more car-like in their feel than any previous version. The first big step in this direction was the TJ. But that's fine with me. As I get older I want a more comfortable, less raw Wrangler. The fact that they have continued to gain capability while getting more civilized is a perfect combination. That's why I'm on Wrangler #6. Jeep has continued to develop them to better accommodate more people. That's also why they continue to have such sales success.