2013 Dakar - On 4 wheels

Discussion in 'Racing' started by Aquatic, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. Brads600

    Brads600 n00b

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    It's time to show and tell. We all know Robby is running hard with his SST project but with NBC on his side why wouldn't he look to be involved.

    so just the other day Mr Gordon is on the Twitter saying things like this.....

    Robby Gordon &#8207;<s>@</s>RobbyGordon don't always believe what you read RT <s>@</s>thomasengrav: <s>@</s>RobbyGordon Dakar? Word on the forums is that you're devoting 100% to SST nxt yr



    So I think it's time, what you think?
    #41
  2. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    I was having a wander through the ASO Dakar Tech Reg's for AUTO's last night... and pursuant to a couple of discussions here, found some interesting "modifications" (to both the cars... and the rulebook :wink:) for 2013... Here is a synopsis

    As dutchie wrote, in principle all engines now in the premier T1 category (diesel or petrol) have to be original/standard components; homologated* under the FIA from manufacturers production model range. (You can use different engines from different models - as long as from same manufacturer).
    *Homologation = 2500 production units/in 12 consecutive months as on sale to public in production vehicles).

    ie: No more hand built factory special engines:

    In general, the major components that must be stock are: Engine block, Crank, Connect rods, Pistons, valve train, cylinder head... all must be series production units.

    So while on paper the Hilux's now get more ponies from the bigger 4.8 liter Lexus V8 (4.5 engine in 2012) and the MINI's have to go back to production based 3,0 liter BMW diesel... the Hilux has a max inlet restrictor diameter of 36mm to feed the V8... the MINI's have 38mm to feed the bi-turbo diesel.

    And then there is still the minimum weight thing to consider; :deal

    Under the FIA min weight table - the 4,8 liter Hilux's must weigh in at no less than 1975 kg's (dry)... but the little MINI's only 1675 kg's (dry). In other words, the MINI full tanked will weigh about the same at the start line as the empty V8 Hilux (which is going to have to carry at least 400 liters to feed that engine?)... So on the long tough dune stages... the MINI will be at a distinct weight advantage for the first third/two thirds of the stages... It's not a cake walk for the Hilux's by any means.

    Regards the "FORD V8 engine in a MITSUBISHI chassis" discussion:

    There is an interesting new(ly introduced for DAKAR 2013) rule in the latest AUTO Tech Reg's, under 2P3 "Advertising" which simply states; "The engine manufacturer is not necessarily linked to the car/manufacturer name"...

    Curiously enough this is the exact OPPOSITE of what it used to be - and still is; under the FIA technical Regs for CCR - where to be considered a "factory entry" eligible for the manufacturer award/general classification, the engine and chassis must be of the same make/brand.

    So it would appear this simple "advertising clause" change HAS indeed made it possible for the Misubishi/RalliArt squad to build a Ford V8 engined ASX and enter it... as you suspect Zeque. :nod

    Which leads me to draw the conclusion that Mssr Viardot has taken over the French mantle from former title holder - JL Schlesser - as the #1 seeded "off season rule Tech Reg's racer", and is taking the battle to the X-Raid and Hallspeed guys to see who can get the most performance out of the rulebook... :rofl

    If Nasser's boys in California are building a (from the ground up) V8 based/rear engined buggy specifically for DAKAR in the FIA T1 or OPEN 1 (SCORE eligible) category... they are limited to a maximum of 5.4 liters engine capacity and the induction manifold must breathe through a restrictor of a diameter not more than 37,2 mm and a minimum weight of just 1400 kg's.

    Now I am not sure what "trickery" the engine tech's in Cali' can achieve with that restrictor limitation (735 Hp seem's more like a figure for a "full house SCORE spec' Trophy Truck engine)... but even if they can get 350-400 out of a restricted one, with the light weight, a good balance/suspension set up - as we've seen with RG in past, it could be more than competitive (on paper :evil at least). I don't think we'll se no 700 + horsepower Qatar buggy in Lima... 350 to 400 sound about right.
    #42
  3. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    I had a similar discussion last year with an inmate from the states on the topic of RG's Hummbuggy and it's (continued) eligibility under the DAKAR rules for 2012/2013 onwards...

    When Gordon's team first built the first version of the Hummer (back in 2005/06 ?) there was a pretty diffuse rule in the ASO/DAKAR rule about the admittance of documented SCORE vehicles competing at Dakar (even though not strictly adhering to the FIA Tech regs the rally is generally conducted under*). But in principle, it accepted vehicles that had a documented technical passport (racing log book) and competition history with SCORE.

    * Since 1998 the DAKAR has always run under it's own (version) Technical regulations as far as vehicle eligibilty/specification goes... but broadly based on the FIA World Cup/CCR technical regulations - they have historically made some of their own amendments/allowances... especially as regards the inclusion of 2WD and SCORE vehicles for "high profile" competitors. :wink: A.k.a. the "Schlesser/RG" technical bulletins. :rofl

    Now the thing here is, that RG's Hummer was never (from beginning) a SCORE race vehicle, he and the team built the car with DAKAR in mind (they subsequently did race it in select SCORE events at various times for testing/promotion purposes), so in fact the DAKAR Hummbuggy was never rally one or the other... kind of a "special case" that ASO definately saw as a drawcard, they wanted in the event... so the eligibility criteria were "massaged" on a year to year basis... In some respects.

    Now one of the key things regards all this (quite aside from weight specifications, engine placement/capacity formula's, suspension travel limits, wheel diameter allowances or whether you can have a restricted tyre inflator, or iflation assisted inlet restrictor fitted to your vehicle :lol3) is that ALL of the SCORE vehicles admitted to compete in DAKAR 2013 must have a technical passport from between 2006 (exact date 31st Dec 2005) and 2010...

    It is my understanding that this rule exists so that the newer Trophy Trucks spec SCORE vehicles are NOT able to participate in the Dakar... deemed to be too technically advanced/brutal in terms of engine output, wheel travel and performance in general. Coincidentally the dates effectively put a "used by date" or limited lifespan of any SCORE vehicle to be entered at Dakar... in particular - in this case - the Hummbuggy as a platform for the Gordon team? :ear

    As I understood the rules (even last year) that RG's rig was on the last year of its "passport" as far as eligibilty in it's present form for DAKAR is concerned....

    Now that is not to say that the Hummer/buggy could not be re-built and re-configured under the FIA T1 2WD regulations... This is possibly what Al Attiyahs California based team are doing? But as far as I can determine RG's SPEED Hummer last year was running (2011/2012) on the last of it's "use by date" as far as the passport/rule book goes.

    Has he "re-built" the car(s)... has he got another extension on the paperwork...? What was the end result of the FFSA exclusion...?
    Has RG decided to concentrate on his domestic US racing program and dis the Dakar? (what is SST...? :ear)

    He adds a great dimesion to the racing in his "all american" approach to the event... would be great to see him in Lima again...
    but to date, no concrete announcement from his side as far as I have seen...? :ear

    Maybe he's playing his cards close to his chest... testing some new solutions out there in the Mojave somewhere...
    and preparing to whoop some Mini-skirts and Sth African farm trucks in January...??? :evil:evil:lol3:lol3
    #43
  4. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    I google it... and found some news on SST (Stadium Super Truck) series that RG is behind. Look's like he is reviving the old MTEG series concept (back to where he got his first big break with Toyota PPI) and bringing stadium truck off road back to the big arenas? :clap

    I could see how a project of that size could keep you busy/focussed and away from Dakar... :wink:

    Guess we'll see when the entry list comes out... or RG makes an anouncement? :ear
    #44
  5. Aquatic

    Aquatic Long timer

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    Many thanks for that Troy.
    With regards to the weights of the different classes, That seem a very big difference! 1400kg - 1975kg.
    Even the 300kg difference for your choice of fuel. These days diesel motors are no longer the sluggish smokers of old. And they get an 2 asthma pumps to boot. I would say even at even weight the diesels would have an advantage for a good part of the rally stages
    #45
  6. Drif10

    Drif10 Accredited Jackass

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    If his car did in fact pass tech as he says, and then they change their minds mid race, would you be inclined to spend all that money and effort again? How could he even get sponsors if they see that his entry can be dq'd on a whim?
    #46
  7. Deadly99

    Deadly99 Fast and Far

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    RG owns his sponsor (speed energy drink) so no worries there. Also he doesn't need to win to give his sponsors publicity as he gets as much if not more air time than any other car even when he doesn't win.

    I could see him not xompeting out of spite for the ruling but I could also see him entering until he wins the race one of these years.

    Time will tell :lurk
    #47
  8. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL... one final time, been posted several times on several differnt places, by several different people here - including Anders Green, myself amongst others - AND IT IS IN THE RULEBOOK... :deal

    Tech inspection at DAKAR (or any other rally for that matter) does NOT ratify a vehicle as conforming to the Technical regulations... It is primarily a check of the administrative and saftey/technical aspects of the crew and vehicle to ensure the vehicle is fit to compete... not a confirmation of its technical eligibility. (THIS goes for moto's, quads, trucks etc. as well... for that matter).

    Yes, the scrutineers check that the safety equipment are approved, the car is weighed and the various certificates/ log books/homologation documents and tech passport are checked to see that all is in order and the vehicles paperwork conforms with the class for which it is entered.

    To say that "the car passed tech... so they can't disqualify me" is an oversimplification of the procedure, effectively used as part of a defence intended to get sympathy/support of the unwashed public on side in an attempt to get the ruling overturned.

    You cannot check all vehicles for technical conformity with all of the rules at scrutineering; else you would have closer to 400 vehicles torn down to the cylinder blocks in order to measure cylinder volumes, internal engine components etc. It's lidicrously impossible... and JUST as I saw Anders Green reply to a similar post late last year... THAT is what the purpose of "post-event" scrutineering is for... to check that the winners, place getters (and any protested vehicle) DO conform to the tech elegibilty requirements... Until that point, the oganisers/stewards assume that all vehicles are compliant as presented at scrutineering/documentation.

    RG's claim that they had the Hummer "air inflation" tyre system "approved" by the FIA/ASO technical committee prior to the event may well be true... In as much as any team must make an application on the technical passport for such a thing.

    But depending on how detailed the Gordon Team were with explaining WHERE THE VACCUUM FOR THE DEFLATION cycle of the system was drawn from (ie. a place in the induction manifold BEHIND the point where the air restrictor is fitted), then the tech stewards may not have been aware of the anomoly with the air restrictor regulation (ie: the exclusive prohibition for ANY air admission connection/bypass on the downward induction side of the restrictor) and when some clever individual pointed this out mid way through last years rally... the tech stewards followed the rule book to the letter... regardless of the practicalities of HOW the tyre inflation/deflation system worked, of whether it admitted extra air or not to the air intake sytem... The fact that there was an air hose connected to the manifold downstream of the restrictor is in contravention of the restrictor regulations (literally speaking) and that's what the excluded him for... and the FFSA dismissed RG's appeal some weeks after the rally... and he was strucken from the results... but still eligible to enter 2013, if he so wishes.

    I hope he does... in a competitive vehicle... we will have to wait and see... :ear
    #48
  9. Brads600

    Brads600 n00b

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    Nice break down on the "rule" infraction. The letter of the law does rule the lay of the land at the end of the day, but it was nice to see RG coming back and showing that his next stage win had the "hose in question" not even connected, which of course led to the KMA statement. Love him or hate him RG brings an amazing story line to the event and a huge following not only in this country but is very much followed in South America.

    This came out the other day from the Helix folks and can't stop laughing as the women in the add flys by the two Mini drivers walking back with out their car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRg9YCyJqc&feature=youtu.be

    Looks like a good Mini/Helix battle is on the way, oh and don't forget that I will break your car guy (Nassar)
    #49
  10. Deadly99

    Deadly99 Fast and Far

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    :d
    #50
  11. Dread Pendragon

    Dread Pendragon throttle to the donk

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    I'm still laughing:

    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/neRg9YCyJqc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    #51
  12. ArthDuro

    ArthDuro quarantined

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    she says "looking good ladies..."

    :poser
    #52
  13. ZequeArgentina

    ZequeArgentina Been here awhile

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    That is a good explanation on how scrutenning and technical inspections work!
    Sometimes people tend to confuse "media comments" like, "it has no performance gain" and so on. But FIA, FFSA or whatever regulations should only consider the "within te rules" or "out of the rules".
    It it has been an intentionally undercovered trick, it is not only an uncompliance but a more serious case (E.g. Toyota case with Celica world rally cars)
    #53
  14. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    I would just like to clarify; that I don't believe that Gordon Hummer restrictor rule "infraction" was a deliberate attempt by RG's team to gain any kind of performance advantage or circumvent the air restrictor... Rather it was just a smart method to assist/speed up the deflation phase of the auto tyre inftation/deflation system on the vehicle. Unfortunately the position on the manifold where the team chose to couple the hose, was in contravention of the air restrictor regulations... and although the two (seemingly unrelated systems/function), it was something that never occured to the technicians on the Hummer team to "cross check" in the rulebook that it may create a problem. It was the FIA scrutineers suspicion that this hose may be used to allow extra air admission - and thereby achieve a performance increase - that led to the technical jury's inquiry in the first place, and fuelled the (sensationalised) media coverage of the incident... which of course culminated in RG disconecting the hose in question and the now infamous "...they can KMA" quote. :lol3

    But be all that as it may, the hose was hooked up to a place where (according to the tech stewards interpretation of the rules) where it was not permitted... and the exclusion was upheld.

    Now all of this is quite different to the famous Celica GT4 ST205 "turbo cheat" incident committed by TTE back in the 1995 WRC... :deal (The incident that Zeque was referring to)

    http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

    http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-331465.html

    Which was quite clearly a very well planned and ingeniously engineered attempt by the TTE engineers of the day to circumvent the FIA's turbo air restrictor regulation in WRC competition at that time. :wink:

    A couple of TTE engineers/mechanics from that time (under the then leadership of Ove Andersson) are freinds/acquaintances of mine from the old days... and believe me, over a beer or two by a bivouac campfire one night; I could tell you a number of WRC/CCR stories (not just about Toyota mind you... but Mitsubishi, Citröen, Peugeot and Ford) where the rules have been broken (or at least bent)... and many times without being caught! All completely "off the record" and deniability of course! :wink:
    #54
  15. ZequeArgentina

    ZequeArgentina Been here awhile

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    Sure, I was reffering to this case about the TTE and the Celicas.
    Sorry, I may have not be clear, I am also not saying RG trying to intentionally obtained an advantsge forcing the rules.
    #55
  16. Aquatic

    Aquatic Long timer

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    I'll buy the beer!

    Having worked with the engineers at Toyota Motorsport South Africa.(Before Glynn took over) and seen "some things" myself. I would like to sit in at this campfire please.
    #56
  17. Balkan Boy

    Balkan Boy Long timer

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    I've been wondering since last year who was that brought to ASO's attention Robby Gordon's mischief.
    It would take some inside knowledge or a hell of a guess to pinpoint where hoses go.
    #57
  18. Brads600

    Brads600 n00b

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    [​IMG]
    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="570"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="center" width="20">[​IMG]</td><td align="left" valign="center" width="550">SA-Dakar 2013: Al Attiyah, Sainz and Magnaldi together in new Dakar-Team.
    </td></tr></tbody></table>[​IMG]
    <table class="imgtext-table" align="left" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="293"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1">[​IMG]</td><td rowspan="6" valign="top">[​IMG]</td></tr><tr><td valign="top"><table align="left" bgcolor="#000000" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>[​IMG]
    </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1">[​IMG]</td></tr><tr><td valign="top"><table align="left" bgcolor="#000000" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>[​IMG]
    </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1">[​IMG]</td></tr><tr><td valign="top"><table align="left" bgcolor="#000000" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>[​IMG]
    </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>The last international news abouth the former Southamerica Dakar winner Nasser Al-Attiyah will race in the 2013 Dakar with its own team seems almost confirmed. But the first rumors pointed to a team with two race cars, the second car should be as Nasser suport, now on the latest news realize a team with three race cars.

    After making several contacts throughout the year, Nasser Al-Attiyah has hired the services of Jefferies Racing Californian company specializing in the off-road buggy´s manufacture to the United States Championship. Nasser has order to building three Buggy´s to be used on the 2013 Dakar January 5, 2013 in South America.

    All these rumors, were coated even more interest when they began to speak in the Nasser team mates. Regarding the latest information, one of these buggy´s will be driven by the Spaniard Carlos Sainz, who should have received VW permitions, as part of the Polo WRC development program.

    The remaining Buggy will be driven by French Thierry Magnaldi, former biker rider, who in the past few years has accumulated much experience with kind of buggy´s.

    The Buggy´s are very similar´s to the Robby Gordon Hummer, these cars will only have rear wheel drive, and will be fitted with the powerfull V8 engine. Although the Dakar/FIA regulations will eventually have some changes in the team website information about their cars realize that the engines have the awesome power of 735 Bhp.

    These cars have almost finished its construction, with the first testing session scheduled for 7-15 November. Carlos Sainz will not be present, as will other existing commitments.

    2012/11/01 | 14:47 CET | ARTICLE: MR/HS/RRMG/RALLYRAID.ES/CEFRE
    #58
  19. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5ool

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    Not really...

    I have an (unconfirmed) theory on how that one could have gone down...

    If - as RG has always maintained - the air inflation system they ran in 2012 Dakar is the same as they have had for a few years, then there is every possibility that a spotter* from another team noticed something (during scrutineering - or in a bivouac) that did not "conform" as far back as even a year or two earlier.

    *All of the factory teams at the top of WRC and CCR have technical staff (spotters or "in team" scrutineers/spies) who are intimately versed in the standard and technical regulations, whose job it is to keep an "eye" on what the other teams are up to.

    Now rule number 1. in the game is; "if you are bending the rules... make sure you don't get caught".

    Rule number 2. is; "If you catch someone else bending the rules... you have an ace in your hand."

    Rule number 3. is; "Keeping an ace up your sleeve... for when you need one... it's dirty (but effective) poker..." or in other words; you don't need to protest someone who is not a threat. :wink:

    RG's team was never really ever any sort of a threat to the "big guns" in 2009, 2010... perhaps 2011... so even if a "rival" team had spotted an anomaly with Gordons tyre deflation system or air restrictor (which IS inspected as part of pre-scrutineering process on the elite/factory T1 vehicles), there is absolutely no need to play that "ace" until needed.

    It's speculation (and some hearsay) but there is every chance that the "restrictor infringement" could have been spotted and noted 12 months (or more) prior. :evil

    Once a "protest" is put into place... It does not even need to be successful in order to be effective (from a rival competitor teams viewpoint)... especially in a team where the "team manger/owner" and "lead driver" are one and the same... Getting them flustered enough to take their "eye of the ball" would be enough at that level to give the rival team drivers the edge out on the piste... Especially seeing as all they have to do is drive (not direct the service team schedule, park service vehicles, go to jury hearings and dig out bogged team trucks to boot :wink:).

    To say that RG is an integral and pivotal part of his operation is no understatement... I have no doubt he has capable people he delegates to... but from what you see (and I've heard), he is a pretty "hands on" type of guy, and can (at times) spread himself pretty thin... I have no doubt that there are other team bosses aware of this, and exploiting that fact is not something that they would be adverse to taking advantage of.

    Now all this may seem pretty cloak and dagger, clandestine sort of stuff... but I can assure you - in the heyday of the Mitsubishi vs. Citröen vs. FIA days, this sort of tactic was commonplace. In fact, compared to some of the things that went on during the peak of the "T3 Proto" battles - out in the African deserts during the mid to late nineties... RG's "restrictor-gate" deal is pretty tame. :wink:

    Gee... I sure hope RG is at the start line in Peru... What...? With the Hilux's, the MINIS, the Speed team and now Nasser/Carlos with their new "buggy specials"... Hell, it'll be like duelling pistols at ten paces from all four corners of the ring and dillingers hidden in their socks! :lol3:rofl
    #59
  20. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    Robby Gordon is his own worst enemy. Always has been. That being said, he will be there with his new deep pockets BFF Clyde Stacy. Clyde has cubic mega bucks and is a major Rubby leg humper. Rubby is leading the BITD class 1 points in a Clyde owned, Gieser built, TT without fenders. Rubby is racing the 1000 with Clyde's young gun from Mexico BITD TT driver in Rubby's TT.

    As far as Nasser is concerned. The Jefferies cars are being built because one of Nasser's buddies had a Jefferies sand buggy everyone thought was too cool for school. Jefferies has zero experience building Dakar type vehicles. Simple things like putting a windshield on a buggy changes everything and cooling/air flow becomes a major issue. Again, Jefferies has zero experience with any building, let alone prepping of a Dakar vehicle. Neither Nasser nor Carlos will make it as far as Nasser did in the RGM prepped buggy last year. Mark my words.
    #60