2013 Dakar Pre-Event Discussion

Discussion in 'Racing' started by SafariBerg, Mar 18, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Balkan Boy

    Balkan Boy Long timer

    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,491
    Location:
    Balkan
    I don't think they will drop Helder because it's way too unreasonable at the moment. Countless reasons not do it.
    Or ...
    Did Helder receive an offer he couldn't refuse from KTM? :freaky


    I think there's more analogy to this in WRC with Loeb/Sordo/Ogier/Hirvonen shuffle in the past three years.
    Someone may be benched for a few years, someone will take a step back and the king will be king.
  2. doyle

    doyle RallyRaidReview-ing

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Oddometer:
    24,789
    Location:
    Off Piste
    It certainly wouldn't be unusual in motorsport to have some shakeup/team jumping in the relatively stagnant (team/rider wise) world that is moto rally. Some feel nothing left to prove. Others have caught up to KTM, like Husqvarna with a comparatively smaller effort and HRC out of the gate. Surely KTM is top of the heap, but others have caught on rather quickly. Maybe a jump to HRC gives CD a bit more of a future as he chases Peterhansel's win record? HRC wants to win and I can imagine that Henk Hellegers and Katsumi Yamazaki are under big pressure to produce results quickly.

    Sam and Zanol getting hurt to the point of being out of the race can only be seen as a major failure in Japanese circles regardless of the circumstances. I would expect that the rally arm of HRC has a very small window and are on a very short leash to produce quickly. Put in that position, what would you do? Quiet, reserved Helder who is fast and smooth, but not unquestionably alien in ability or use Helder money to go after the one rider who has proven the best results over the past decade, has name recognition, and is supremely marketable?
  3. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Oddometer:
    5,921
    Location:
    Somewhere west of Laramie...
    Phew... a week is a long time in rallying! - if only changing teams was as simple as it is Legoland!


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Jx
  4. Brodovitch

    Brodovitch Team ⌘R

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    3,171
    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    That's scary. It sort of spells KTMs withdrawal from the Dakar to focus on other racing pursuits, and stinks of racing programs dictated by marketing teams. It seems for the last ten years that both car and bike marques have been trying to keep out of each others way which is a damn shame. For example the cars. First mitsu, they retire And hand over the keys to vw who clean sweep for 4 years, who then leave the party and pass the keys to mini. This isn't head to head racing but a marketing exercise with the veneer of competition.

    In the bikes less so, but it just starts to stink as if the marketing depts meet in some secret Bilderberg bunker and cut up the racing schedule so as to notch up wins unopposed. "We'll give you moto3 for the next 5 years to prop up your duke 200/390 sales if you give us the Dakar" kind of thing. However, look at HRC leaving after they launched the Africa twin. Or BMW's one off effort with Sainct to sell a gazillion F650s.

    Point being that the really scary scenario in all of this -might never happen and I am just being paranoid- is that KTM desert the Dakar having nothing left to prove after 10 years. With so much money invested in winning, who wants to tarnish that image by potentially losing to the increasing efforts of HRC? Walk away while you're still on top, save face and all that...

    I hope I am wrong because just the thought really depresses me. While the 450 formula is supposed to generate competition, the marketing departments (may they all burn in hell) have a different agenda
  5. too old

    too old Keen supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Oddometer:
    4,215
    Location:
    Sandy waste
    But to have this in place before the 2013 Dakar has run and they can see what their only option in Helder can do, or maybe having the Gaelic influence could be seen as a political move with the ASO & FIM :lol3
  6. Brodovitch

    Brodovitch Team ⌘R

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    3,171
    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    Cyril has the added benefit of his manager which I am told holds extra weight with the ASO :wink:
  7. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Oddometer:
    25,333
    Location:
    "Swednavia" - f5ederation of scandwegia
    whoa, whoa whoa...:huh Rewind the audio tape... before we get too far ahead of ourselves with the Bordone-Ferrari like PR superlatives Doyle... The "others" may have caught up (well, sniffing at their coat tails might be more like it :wink:) but to date NOBODY has beaten KTM - at the factory level - in Rally Raid consistently or otherwise over the last 10 years. Sure Helder pulled a title a couple of years back with his Yamaha/Portugal effort, Husky/Speedbrain have taken one event win (Pharoahs) last year... and a few other semi-privateer efforts have tasted glory in the des Sertoes etc. over the last few season since formula 450 took off... but ALMOST all of these have been when the bigboy's at KTM were away and not playing in the sandpit. But to this point in time no one has beaten KTM head to head (the last to do so was the BMW factory effort back in 2000/2001) at their own game. So anyone jumping ship from the Mattighofen inner sanctum, must have had a heap of lettuce waved at them, cause it makes NO tactical sense as far as secuting victory goes. The events of the HRC testing in California just show how unpredictable the card table can be for those joining the game... no matter how well financially backed they are.


    From a PR perspective; I think it's pretty crap of HRC... I can't see that they will get any added value (other than purely name/notoriety) from Cyril's defection (if the rumour/speculation is true).

    The badwill created by leaving the orange fold after a decade, would really put a dent in his market patina/profile in my opinion. And after all, if his "used by" date comes up in two years... three at best (if he wants to chase Peterhansels record, he needs to get le' finger out... he's behind the time curve as it is), and meanwhile the gratitude, enthusiasm and groundswell that would have been created behind bringing Helder over to the HRC squad and building for the future with a new generation of rally empire... THAT would be a forward thinking program in my mind. Now they're just hiring the old emporer from the existing dynasty. A typical Japanese "copy" tactic.... and like you say; they're probably under pressure... :evil well history shows us how that works... they tend to prefer sneak attacks, and don't respond well under full court pressure. :1drink

    I dunno what they're thinking, but it's not surprising... a lot of what they've done these last months has left me scratching my head...?

    I honestly believe if this does eventuate, that they will make a "double edged down trade" by going this way... Despres loses a lot of cred in the bivouac as a long term member of the Mattighofen inner circle/family... and HRC lose (what I would imagine) would be a very appreciative, dedicated and proffessional rider; in the form of Helder... A guy who I am sure did not just take his decision to part with Yamaha/Portugal after all the years cooperation lightly... swayed most likely because he saw a long term future at HRC...?

    As BalkanBoy wrote; it all seems pretty ill timed... maybe Doyle's sources are just pissing rumours? maybe not? :D

    Anyway, as far as Despres is concerned, I cannot see DAKAR 2013 or the rest of the season being a stellar year at KTM, if he spends the whole time looking towards the door in November...? :1drink
  8. too old

    too old Keen supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Oddometer:
    4,215
    Location:
    Sandy waste
    Well recently Husaberg pulled back from rally so is that related? But as you say with the 450 standardisation this would make no sense and would be a real kick in the teeth for the FIM - just couldn't see KTM taking that on?:1drink
  9. Brodovitch

    Brodovitch Team ⌘R

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    3,171
    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    I hate quoting myself,but, on cue, this. Notice the numbers gained in offroad and street bikes respectively (about 1 dirt bike to 4 road bikes), and the emphasis on the small capacity Duke models. Could be that Dakar is turning into a Veni-Vidi-Vici-Got the Tshirt affair for Orange.

    Drama, Innuendo, Conspiracy Theories, Rampant Speculation. Doncha just love it? :lol3
  10. Flood

    Flood F5lood.

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2005
    Oddometer:
    10,161
    Location:
    Austria
    I also think that IF the rumor is true, the background could be KTM retiring from the Dakar. Manufacturer of the year or not, they still aren't totally stable financially and they have been hurting since 2008. Keeping up the huge factory effort for the Dakar is a completely different thing for KTM than for a company like Honda.

    Maybe KTM says 11 wins is enough, Coma is retiring and Despres is out to earn some more money at HRC?
  11. doyle

    doyle RallyRaidReview-ing

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Oddometer:
    24,789
    Location:
    Off Piste
    Word is his actual contract only includes Dakar 2013. :deal I don't quite agree on the bivouac effect though. He's been with KTM a long time yes, but certainly it's not unheard of in many circles for long time love affairs to make a change. For all Schumi did for Ferrari they nearly pushed him out the door as thanks. F1 is not the right comparison, but in nearly all other aspects of motorsport, there have been long pairings, seemingly unbreakable that have indeed broken and gone on, some to fail, some to flourish. KTM are no dummies. They would be keen to begin the process of grooming replacements as they did with Aubert and Zanol last year, neither of which panned out to Mattighoffen's liking though.
  12. doyle

    doyle RallyRaidReview-ing

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Oddometer:
    24,789
    Location:
    Off Piste
    Speaking of...Having recently had his big sponsor dollars pulled, he also just separated from his management team, he's in a tough spot as well especially as his injuries are rumored to be worse than broadcast.

    The F5 rumor mill is in full swing.
  13. ThomasVolomitz

    ThomasVolomitz New Old Stock

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,500
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    This thread is getting almost as much action as the race thread, love it. Thanks for putting it in high gear!
  14. dashmoto

    dashmoto Serial Tinkerer

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Oddometer:
    414
    Location:
    East Midlands, UK
    Dunno, my bro-in-law sold his motorbike after a crash that broke his wrist and meant he missed a summer of MTBing. Fast forward a couple of years and he's currently recovering after riding into a tree on the MTB and separating his collarbone. I've certainly not been winding him up by suggesting he get a nice safe motorbike, or threatening to buy him some stabilisers. Oh no :rofl

    Fixed for you T.
  15. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    4,355
    Location:
    Knobby country
  16. tehdutchie

    tehdutchie Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    2,146
    Location:
    Amsterdam or on Twitter @antal
    I thought you had news.. The above has been buzzing since the Australasian Safari :rofl

    Cyril nearly signed for Aprilia 2 years ago.. Nearly..
  17. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Oddometer:
    25,333
    Location:
    "Swednavia" - f5ederation of scandwegia
    This makes sense... if Mattighofen are going to pull the plug on Dakar to minimise the corporate expenditure in the GFC climate, and the Sapnish Alien is winding up, then perhaps the brass at KTM would give Despres the heads up and effectively a green light to make the switch to HRC (after january... if Doyles contract info' is on the money) on mutually agreeable terms...

    In which case the motivation for CDP to "go out on a winning note" with the old guard could provide the focus and team spirit necessary... :deal see below...

    Excellently made counterpoint Mr Doyle (as always) :getiton Like you pointed out in a previous post, Cyril is the consumate professional and marketing/PR pin up boy... not to mention his immaculate planning and execution (99% of the time)... so given the premise that Flood outlined above... Yeah, I see the possibility in that scenario (KTM bowing out gracefully) that Cyril and the team would be keen to make one last hurrah for the Orange brigade together, before that chapter is closed and he moves on to the HRC page...


    Though as Brodo points out; it is somewhat worrying/dissappointing if KTM decides to hang the banner in the workshop and not compete at factory level in rally any further... also it would not bode too well for the sport. No one team is irreplaceable sure, and though the other teams have started to flourish under the formula 450 revolution, no one entity is big enough to make up the hole left by KTM... unless HRC come in as the new factory power/heir apparent to the throne. :huh

    Meanwhile the snipers at Husky/Speedsprain are quietly and stealthily weighing their options...

    Man this is turning into a soap opera of Hollywood proportions... you just can't make this stuff up...


    Oh... that's right... we are!!! :rofl:rofl:rofl
  18. Deadly99

    Deadly99 Fast and Far

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    11,347
    Location:
    Merrickville, Canada
    I was scratching my head lately wondering why ktm weren't focusing on grooming some up and comers....terminating their Dakar effort would make sense.

    I don't see Cyril owing anything to ktm, he has repaid them a few times over for their "investment" in him. I don't see him leaving as a dishonest or non honorable thing.

    Coma retiring? F5preseaon...:eek1

    What next? Jin Cheng buying Coma and Helder :rofl

    The valve to the firehose is slowly being opened :pynd
  19. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Oddometer:
    25,333
    Location:
    "Swednavia" - f5ederation of scandwegia
    In light of the above (coupled wit KTM's rumoured withdrawal), it's not inconcievable that Marc is considering hanging up the boots; much of the sponsorship/PR wave that he rode and rose to fame as a part of (2002 to 2007) was coupled to the Dakars boom period in Spain/Portugal... the various starts in Barcelona/Lisbon special stages in both countries before the rally's departure to Africa... and the big sponsor budgets like Repsol, Gauliouse, Red Bull etc.

    The GFC has hit Spain's economy hard, maybe not so easy to secure the dollars needed anymore (especially now the race is in Sth America) so - this too - could be a logical, natural progression?

    Maybe the era of the "Aliens" is drawing to a close... and one of the "Predators" are about to take over...? :ear

    [​IMG]
  20. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    4,355
    Location:
    Knobby country
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.