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Discussion in 'Ridiculous streetbikes with 6 CPUs and too much HP' started by 2wdrift, May 5, 2014.
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If you only get one thing from this thread, watch this video. Oldfuddy explains the problem very well, which in his case appears to be the air box lid letting in totally un-filtered air. Let's face it, if un-filtered air is seeping thru the lid, with the poor design of the air box which has open intake trumpets inside, all the filters in the world won't matter, dirty air can still get in your engine. :eek1 Not good.:eek1
This is truly a poor design by KTM, I'm honestly a disappointed fan, as I bleed orange. The 950 has the filters directly on the intake trumpets, which makes sense. If a little dust gets in the air box, so be it, the air still must go thru the filters prior to intake into the carbs. I have always run a pre filter with a sock, which honestly stops most of the dirt before it ever get to the main (paper,BTW) filter on the trumpets.
So sealing the air box lid is obviously critical, as well as a good seal between the bottom of the air box and the intake trumpets. It appears the air coming the the intake snorkels is properly filtered assuming you have a good seal there also. It is just a preference of paper of oiled foam, your call. I'd suggest using grease on all edges
Just a thought, it appears to me oiled pre-filter socks (like from my 950) zip tied over the intake snorkels would serve as an effective last line of defense if any dirty air gets thru the various other seals and filter edges. They do not seem to cause any noticeable lack of power on the 950. I may try it when I get in there and install the uni-kit. If nothing else, clean trumpet socks the next time I get in there will be peace of mind I have solved the issue, or dirty sock will tell me there is still an issue. I'm not sure you could get them secure enough though - you certainly don't want them getting sucked into the throttle bodies!
What you think - overkill? BTW, just picked up the bike Saturday night on an impulse smoking deal, rode 422 twisty road only miles on Sunday, and love it. Wow, does it handle! It will remain on the road until I am confident the air box issue is solved First oil change tonight.
That would suggest us in the USA don't need to worry too much about warranty issues for installing a Uni setup on our own. Still waiting to see what Rottweiler Preformance has coming.
2 cents worth from a 950 and 990 guy........The paper filters, themselves won't allow dirt through. Sealing issues with any filter will allow dirt through. Putting multiple filters in series will richen the fuel mixture. Foam or gauze/K and N filters will allow more air in and lean the mixture when compared to paper.
I trust foam filters. Like thousands of dirt bike guys, have used them exclusively for years and years in dustier conditions than most big Adventures will ever see. Pre filters or supplemental "socks" are very rarely used and IMO are not needed for most riders.
A lot of 950 and 990 guys ran snorkel Uni pre filters. I assume they were looking to extend the service life of their paper filters, which are expensive and not the easiest to access. For many, these pre filters were part of a re jetting package which was designed to improve performance from the CV carbs on the 950s.
I have only seen pictures of the 1190 airbox. But it looks very similar to the 950 and 990 piece. If the hold down screws are self tappers going into the plastic, that would be the first area to watch--very easily overtightened and stripped. Most guys probably know this old trick, but such screws need to be turned backwards/left to find the existing thread, then tighten. This avoids cutting new threads and weakening the hold. As noted by some, greasing the filter edges in the sealing areas would be an effective solution.
As many have alluded to, the foam filter without an airbox is the solution I like. I use the SW7 and swear by it. Filtration is not a problem, performance improved and maintenance access is greatly improved. Don't know how guys with bikes under warranty would be impacted by switching.
2 days of farm roads
Bunch of dust in the trumpets and airbox
Installed the Uni
I fitted my Unifilter yesterday while installing a pair of Clearwater lights (with an excellent wiring harness). I think the foam gasket for the lid is probably too thick. It seemed like the lid now rubs the gas tank, since it sits a bit higher than stock. Other than that, the Unifilter seems to be an excellent solution.
I found some small amount of dust in the intakes, but nothing that concerns me. The bike has been on the road for 6 weeks and I have put 2000 road miles on it.
Most automotive air filters I have seen recently use the filter seal as the gasket between the lid and airbox. This seems to be the best way to go, hint, hint, KTM.
Ok guys, here are the dyno results. All runs are with a wings short muffler with small insert/baffle (with USA spark arrestor cut off) installed. No cat.
The runs were performed at Mach 1 ~ http://mach1ca.com/services/ ~
The dyno operator did a great job making at least 4 pulls with each scenario. Then picking the best one, but within each scenario the numbers were very consistent.
The first set of runs was with the Uni-Filter SYSTEM, including snorkels, pre-filter, filter and air box lid gasket.
116.89hp - 74.35tq
Then we pulled the snorkel filters out.
126.82hp - 78.77tq
Third set of runs, stock air filter, no air box lid gasket.
130.23hp - 80.17
I thought the Uni-fliter would take a little HP, for me I thought it was worth the 2 or 3 HP for good motor protection. I also knew it was just a stop gap until Chris Parker at Rottweiler Performance came out with his air filter ~ http://www.rottweilerperformance.com/Adventure1190.html ~ . Now I want motor protection and more HP.
13.34hp and 5.82tq for a filter.
Now I really want the Rottweiler Performance air filter.
I also would like to thank all those that donated again.
Chris told me the Uni took a lot of HP - but I had no idea. The majority seems to be the snorkel filters. Now I am wondering if its even good for the folks breaking the engine in choked up with this system.
Looking forward to the Rottweiler system and the maps for the power commander they will provide.
:eek1 I am completely flabbergasted. And I dont use flabbergasted lightly.
Do we have numbers for the Rottweiler yet?
KTM fitted the DNA filter on my bike and I've now without even riding it, bought the Unifilter and will be fitting it instead.
The KTM Technician who's also a racing did tell me thou, he would not recommend fitting the snorkels, they become to dirty to quickly and RICHEN (as pointed out, my error to say lean) out the mixture, so they will fit the Uni as they do to many 1190's but, not the snorkel filters. Now it makes sense and confirms what has been said with regards to this setup, can't have so much filtration and NOT have a degree of power loss.
Just watch out for no lid runs, this is normal for Superbike motors to flow ALOT more air and thus give you these change in readings and AF ratio. This is why RAM Air only comes into effect at much higher speeds which is not normally simulated on a dyno.....
An easy way to see if air box is leaking would be to spray some gasoline on the junction of the lid, if the rev changes, that would mean air comes through, no ?
I have removed my UNi foam sock, it was a case of just 6 screws, I fitted the wife's pantyhose
over the plastic intake part for now.
Im waiting on the original KTM part that goes over this piece it has to come from o/s there is none in Australia.
I think the pantyhose is good enough as my bike does not see much dirt, it will still block out big flies, wasps,
and crap like that, also any dust that I come across..
I'm letting my bike breathe, so after getting my nickers in a twist over this, I fitted the pantyhose and all is ok..
How does a dirty filter lean the mixture?
X2 - removed mine also for now as that seems to be the biggest HP killer. Easy to remove 5 screws on each side. I would reinstall them if I know I am going on a very dusty trail.
Again, hopefully the Rottweiler kit will be out soon and there wont be any more worries on good filtration vs HP loss/gain
I had the airbox of my 2013 R replaced with a 2014 box, which is said to be stiffer, and have the PowerPart socks attached to the snorkels´ air intakes. I still run the bike with the OEM paper filter. So if there is a leak between bottom and lid, why apparently has nobody ever just used duct tape to seal it and fixed the problem for good?
Just my 2c