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Discussion in 'Road Warriors' started by Paulvt1, May 31, 2013.
NoNo, not at all, I like!
The Versys is quite popular in some parts of the USA. However, it is even more street-biased than the DL-650 Vstrom. Very few buyers actually take this bike (and many other "ADV" beasts) off road, but lots of buyers want the option and/or the ADV features/look. Hence, the marketing campaigns for many, including the new CB500X. However, since the EX-650R (called "Ninja" but not a true sport bike - there is that Marketing Department, again!) is fairly close to the Versys, potential buyers have a choice. Sales are split between the two models. That doesn't mean (to me, at least) that the Versys is a sales failure.
It will be interesting to see the sales breakdown between the three new Honda CB500 models: The "F" naked, the "R" w/sport fairing, and the "X" with the "Adventure Look" (that quote is straight from Honda's marketing department). Honda is not claiming that the CB500X is really an ADV bike - it has a standard street-bike steering geometry and only a little more suspension. With the higher handlebars, it does have a larger gas tank. Personally, I'd buy the CB500R or the EX-650R. Many other folks will gravitate toward the CB500X and the Versys. Mostly for looks and/or style, but as long as you like what you ride, that's all that counts.
+1 I have been sort of looking for a crashed Versys to build into a stripped, giant Supermoto. I have an XR650R with 19s (mostly for less $ than 17s) and I love it, but not for longer distance of freeway. I actually prefer 17s from years of racing Supermoto so I have no problems in the dirt with a small front tire. I also wondered if the +100lbs of the Versys over the XR would be even offset by only +10HP? The FZ-09 motor would be great! I wouldn't sell my XR, but might trade the naked SV1000?!
Great minds think alike! I have been looking at Versys-es (Versi?) for the past year for the same reason. Making something that still had what I love about a big single Supermoto, but with the increased distance ability, by stripping one down to the bare minimum, maybe an ER-6 gas tank, Uly headlight etc.
I have noticed in my area (Utah) the price for used ones has gone up about $1k over the past 12 months. Last year you could get them for $3.7~$3.9k and now they are $4.5~$4.9k and they tend to move pretty quick at that price. That makes me think that more people are catching on.. may be wishful thinking. I have no idea how they are selling new.. maybe they don't sell well so there is less on the used market which makes the price go up for those few of us interested? Don't know..
In any case my hope is that this is a growing market and the Japanese makers are going to jump in more wholeheartedly. Suzuki redesigning the VStrom650 hints that they sold enough of the old one to warrant the investment in this genre. Same with the introduction of the Tenere and the Versys and the Honda ADV-ish X models. Most of these models are like dipping their toe in the water to test it first before they commit and introduce something full-on, like we know they could if they wanted to.
Like a hypermotard for the masses around Yamaha's excellent 80hp 500cc 4-stroke twin in their Phazer snowmobile, or a dirt version WR500R with the same motor. Or to bring it back full circle and on the thread topic, an FZ-09SM supermoto and even an FZ-09SE super enduro.
Or the same chasis with bags and wind protection for you guys able to actually do the 1~2 week wanderlust satisfying trips that us working stiffs with families only dream of.
They went up in price as new too, at least in EU.
That could be the reason.
V-strom went up 30-40% since 2007. :eek1
I noticed that too, my boss bought a new, leftover '09 Versys for $4500 a couple years ago!?!
Tokyo, that 500 twin sounds awesome too with 80HP! I had a WR500 and would have traded the 50+HP 2 stroke single gladly for that motor!
Apparently that 500cc twin is based on 2 YZ250's and revs to 11k. I've ridden the snowmobile and it pulls really nice. I also rode the Nytro snowmobile with a 1,000cc Yamaha triple, also very nice. Can't compare with a 180hp 800cc 2-stroke of course, but they go much longer between rebuilds, and are plenty of fun for most of us who aren't high marking sled necks.
I think the same big and little brother combo in bikes would be great. FZ-09 and FZ-05 with 3 flavors each. Dirty ADV, Streety ADV and street/naked.
Much more appealing than Honda's all 48hp 700 and 500 family. What's up with that? Those motors must be so overbuilt and under tuned they will last forever. I guess if I'm ever tired of doing wheelies now and again that might be appealing. I need to ride before I judge too harshly though.
It's Europe's tired licencing: 19-21 year olds are restricted to 35kW, about 47-48bhp.
And in emerging markets, where 125cc to 250cc is the norm, those bikes are probably classed as premium.
Hey y'all, this is my first post here. Figured I'd drop in since this forum has the best discussion of this bike so far. I ride one of the streetfightered supersports mentioned earlier (on adventures, too!) and a few things I'm noticing here:
This bike weighs roughly the same as, and has roughly the same power as, a 600 supersport but has more torque. Supermotos are fashionable these days and bikes like the KTM 1290 have a lot of riders drooling.
I think the point of this thing is to get experienced riders to trade in their 10 year-old bikes that were good enough to warrant keeping until this came along. Plus it can jump shit, something my CBR600F4i isn't great at doing.
So I don't think it's aimed directly at the sport-touring, adventure crowd (yet). It's a hooligan bike. For keeping the front wheel in the air.
It doesn't look like much from the side but all the shots from other angles are pretty appealing. Most people really only catch a glance of a bike in passing and I think it will look a lot better in person. Also, with a rider ON it.
And they're going to have the sound dialed.
Some of us who have never wanted to give up the sublime performance of a supersport would gladly give up their crushed perineums for a better all-rounder, assuming this thing handles.
In the war for power, it's easy to forget that a 600 supersport in the hands of a competent rider is as quick as pretty much anything else out there. This thing is going to absolutely rip in the right hands . Run circles around lesser riders.
I pretty much plan on getting one of these barring Kawi coming out with an affordable version of that stupid-sweet retro piece:eek1. Those bars are awfully wide but that's easily remedied.
Those wide bars give control and quick steering in tight turns, grasshopper! But that is one of the great things about bikes with tubular bars, you can simply bolt on any shape you want.
Or cut off what's already there. I love my V but I'm hoping/thinking the new Yam Triple will give me the bump in displacement, power/performance, and quality I'm looking for, w/o throwing out the economy. Anxiously awaiting...
Rode my son's Ninja 650R today. We installed sport bars and he loves it. I don't like the hunched over narrow bar position. For a twin, this bike is a screamer above 7K rpm and fun to ride at speed... That's when..........
I realized that this FZ will weigh about 50lbs less and have almost twice as much HP and 35% more torque, with upright seating and wide bars. For my money, it's a dream come true. I just need to figure out where to put it and how to pay for it.....tp
Thanks for the info on the Euro market tiered licensing system, that makes sense.
Japan had similar HP caps as part of manufacturer "gentlemen's agreements" till 2007 I think. 50cc=7.2HP、125cc=22HP、250cc=45HP、400cc=59HP、750cc=77HP、1000cc+=100HP. In 2007 they got together and decided that it doesn't really make sense to have only the domestic market be limited and got rid of them. Though it appears they still have differences in Hp limits which I haven't figured out why yet. The Japan FZ-1 has 94Hp while the foreign market version has 150HP.. anyway I digress.
It is interesting that Honda decided to also cap the 700 at 48HP, I would think the 19-21 market is not the biggest target of that class, but more the older farts like me. It seems the 500 at 48hp would cover that market OK. (edit* I just read that Honda is bumping from 670cc to 720cc and will be selling into the above A2 license category. Apparently the dealers were having a hard time differentiating between the 500 and 700) Also interesting that they make different HP versions of bikes for domestic and foreign markets already, why wouldn't they do it for the 700 and introduce a higher HP version for the states? I am sure that the efficiencies of scale for a 1-world bike makes the most business sense, and they don't think the US market cares.. or something. Maybe this is why I have had a hard time feeling the love from Honda lately.. seems like they continue to try and woo new and "practical" riders and those of us with a passion need to look elsewhere. It is ironic that has been the EU bikes, which may be forced to limit HP in the future. Where can we turn then?
Back to the thread, I'm glad that Yamaha anyway has decided to support the US enthusiast market with 113HP in the FZ-09. I think the above points make it clear they apparently truly are committing to making bikes to get excited about, even if the only place to sell them is the US and higher licensees in EU. I am sure they looked at the same business case numbers as Honda and made a different decision. If they keep this up they may become the "KTM/Ducati/Triumph" of the far east while Honda becomes the "responsible transportation appliance vendor for respectable citizens".
Let's not be careless or overly optomistic:
2012 EX650R 71 hp 66 Nm 461 lbs. wet
2014 FZ-09 113 hp 85 Nm 414 lbs. wet (?)
FZ-09 has a 59% increase in peak HP and a 29% increase in peak torque. The peaks also hit at different places in the rev band.
As to wet weight, the FZ-09 is an 11% reduction wrt the EX650R, so overall a terrific performance envelope.
I still haven't seen wheelbase, rake and trail specs for the FZ-09, so chassis comparisons are still pending.
Of course, the comparison from 650cc to 847cc is hardly fair. So far, only the weight reduction is a valid surprise to me.
wheelbase is 56.7", rake is 25 deg., trail not listed on Yamaha US website
Thanks for taking the time to rain on my parade. I was told HP was 65, from the dealer and torque was in upper 40's, on the 650's. I owned an ER6N and it's basically the same bike as the 650R, and have a feeling that the FZ will be more what I want in a motorcycle than the 6N/R. Just personal...
I will contact you to insure I don't get careless or overly optimistic before I make my purchase.... Doesn't feel good to be berated by a stranger on a forum, does it???
Ok, that's over, thanks for the info, and have a safe weekend... tp
In terms of bhp and market-specific limits, I think the developed world has to get used to Honda viewing this segment as a 'legacy market'. They sell millions of bikes in the developing world, so the main thrust of Honda as a manufacturer is not toward first-world markets.
As regards the Yamaha '9' I expected it to be 94bhp (so restricted bikes could get a 50% power cut to 47bhp, ala Triumph's 800 bikes) but, not so. I guess Yamaha expect to steal enough sales from 600cc-900cc bikes to turn a profit.
I heard a very good news today from my local Yammie diler...
The 2013 Yamaha MT-09 is going to be showed to the world press in Croatia. Still unsure of where exactly, but i hope it's gonna be here on the coast, just like in 2011 with the premiere of V-storm 650.
If you want one, I hope you get it.... tp
<IFRAME height=315 src="//www.youtube.com/embed/zKHYLuiwTU8" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>
Check the first 5 minutes.