3rd Gear Problems 1996 R1100GS

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by Ridin'nFishin, Jul 16, 2010.

  1. def

    def Ginger th wonder dog

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    Why are you switching from moly to tungsten?
    #81
  2. RAL88

    RAL88 Marineboy

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    Tungsten has a lower coeficient of friction than moly. It withstands greater pressure and higher temperatures. It is also smaller in particle size than moly. So small that it can go through the oil filter so I will also be using it in the Mobile 1 that I use for the engine (There are a lot of people using it in their auto and motorcycle engines). The tungsten is so slippery that it will not even stick to itself so it will lay down a layer on the metal parts that is about 0.6 microns thick. One micron is 1/1000 of a milimeter.

    Previously Tungsten (WS2) was quite a bit more expensive than Moly (MoS2) but the price has come down to almost what Moly is.

    I also make my own spline lube with Wurth Sig 3000 grease and moly powder but for next time it will be with WS2.
    #82
  3. def

    def Ginger th wonder dog

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    Most name-brand motor oils including Mobil 1 already contain adequate moly as an EP additive. I would not ad more.
    #83
  4. RAL88

    RAL88 Marineboy

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    From everything I have read Mobile 1 only puts in enough moly to be able to list it on their label and that is not that much. 100-200ppm
    #84
  5. def

    def Ginger th wonder dog

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    How much is enough?

    I'm not a lubrication engineer or tribologist but it doesn't take much moly to provide engine protection.
    #85
  6. RAL88

    RAL88 Marineboy

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    I to am not a tribologist an only go buy what I garner from people with more experience and smarter than I am. The way it was explained to me is you want enough to last through to the next oil change. When the moly adheres to the surface of the metal and you get the friction of metal to metal the moly does wear away and a new particle moves in to take its place. This is on a very small scale and you are correct that it does not take that much but you want enough get through to the next oil change. From talking to some mechanic friends who have use it they tell me that the 100-200 ppm that you find in Mobile 1 does help but is not enough to make it from one oil change to another especially in a motorcycle where your engine rpms are twice that what you find in a car.

    Also as I think we all know the synthetic oils ability to lubricate will go a lot further than dino oil. The problem starts when all the other additives for viscosity, detergent, antifoaming etc. get used up way before the oil really breaks down. I used to use Mobile 1 extended which adds extra additives so it can go longer but I can't find it anymore.
    #86
  7. facetjoint

    facetjoint TONKA

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    Huge long story! Short version is this. I need some tranny help. New to me 97 R1100RT with M97 tranny, with 85K on the clock. With very sketchy maint. records.

    Pulled drive train down for spline lube. Drained tranny and found crumbs I did not like. Tore down, bad input brgs. Clean up and install new brgs. Reassemble.

    My problem is that the cutout notch on the shift drum will not mesh with the shift notch on the shifter pawl on the shift shaft? The drum when fully seated in the trans. case now sets below the the shift shaft shift pawls. Meaning that there is no contact between the shift drum and the shift shaft to allow the tranny to be shifted from one gear to the next.

    I do not have any spare parts left over. All three shafts are correctly seated in the case. The shift drum has to be fully seated in the bottom or back of the case with a snap ring. Meaning if does not " FLOAT" in the transmission. The shift shaft has to also seat in the back of the case in order for the external linkage to be attached.

    I am completely stumped? No parts have been added or removed in these two areas.

    I am open for suggestions.
    #87
  8. Ridin'nFishin

    Ridin'nFishin Been here awhile

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    I am sure you are puzzled, as I am. These trannys are pretty simply looking when opened up, after looking and studing what does what and when it does it and what gear you are in. I have never been into any transmission of any kind in my life until I opened up mine the first time. I have now been into it 2 times. This is what I did on the second time around trying to figure out what my problem was, and I still had to be told (by Bruno) that the gears needed to be undercut. That is the problem with the M94 trannys.

    When I had my tranny apart the second time and wanted to see exactly what does what. While the case is open and you try to shift the gears everything moves around. I made a little jig out of 2" channel iron, spacers and long bolts. Drilled holes in the channel and placed it over the shafts with spacer to keep everything in place then with the drive shaft attached so I could rotate the shaft I could shift thru all the gears and watch what was going on.

    I suggest you do something like that with the case open and when you get it shifting thru all the gears put it back together. Before you put it back in the bike, shift againg thru all the gears over and over to make sure it is working correctly.

    It doessound like you do not have something seated all the way in the tranny, might be the drum(watch for the little pins that they do not slip out and keep the drum from seating all the way down) or the shifting shaft is not seated all the way down or the drum is not in the right position. It only works one way, take your time and understand the tranny, don't force anything.

    I hope this helps.

    #88
  9. facetjoint

    facetjoint TONKA

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    Calvin, yes you are correct in saying that something does not seem to be seated correctly. I've had the shift shaft and the shift drum out and back in probably 25 times and there is just no explanation to the dilemma? What is worse is that I have back surgery scheduled for 9 am tomorrow morning and I wanted this thing back together and back on the ground by now.

    I guess it will have to wait till I am healed up. When the hell ever that will be.

    Thanks Bill
    #89
  10. Ridin'nFishin

    Ridin'nFishin Been here awhile

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    Good luck with your back surgery. I had back surgery in the 90's, L4 & L5.

    You will probably find something simple is kicking your butt on the tranny, I hate it when that happens.



    #90
  11. facetjoint

    facetjoint TONKA

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    Thanks for the good wishes. I hope it is something simple. There are time and it has happened to all of us I am sure. To pick up all the tools and put them all back in the tool box. Shut the lid. Then walk away from the thing for awhile. In my case I am going to be forced to.

    As far as the surgery. Mine is T4/5, T7/8, T8/9 and T9/10. So 24hrs. from now I'll be a hurtin' unit for sure.

    Thanks again, Bill
    #91
  12. Kawidad

    Kawidad Long timer

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    Since your having back surgery, good luck, but two things about the tranny come to mind. First, could the shifter drum be upside down? I've rebuilt several Japanese bike transmissions where the shifter drum can go in either direction and look right, but not work. The other thing is could the drum be turned the wrong direction relative to the shifter pawls? Simply out of phase with the correct alignment.

    Heal quick. :freaky
    #92
  13. facetjoint

    facetjoint TONKA

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    Thanks for the kind words on the back issues. I'm a hurting unit. Let me see if I can get my drug induced brain to get the typed words to the tips of my "fangers." The shift drum can only firs in one way. It has a small shaft that has to fit through the back of the case that the gear position indicator switch attaches to. This switch tells the V.D.O. on the instrument cluster which gear you are in. The drum can only line up in one position to allow the shift forks to be aligned on the drum. But and this is a big but, there is no mechanism to shift the trans when the shift shaft assy. is installed, It has to be something simple that I am just not seeing.

    Maybe I ought to do the old Doctor trick and toss a few of the pain pills inside the transmission and have it cal me in the morning to tell me how it feels.

    Later, thanks Bill
    #93
  14. Vaskar

    Vaskar Been here awhile

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    My 96 1100GS has a 2 second power loss, with 3rd gear when I open non-smoothly the throttle. This happens now for over 3 years. What do you suggest ?
    #94
  15. Ridin'nFishin

    Ridin'nFishin Been here awhile

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    I am not sure if I understand exactly what yo are saying?

    Power loss would be in the motor, but you mention 3rd gear. Could you try to discribe again?

    Mine would happen in 3rd gear after down shifting to 3rd, then picking up speed and just before you shifted to 4th it would have a momentary skip (this is when the dog gears would slip and catch on the next dog gear). It felt as though you grab the clutch and then release it real fast, but felt harsher than what you can do with the clutch, you can tell it is the transmission, it would hit pretty hard. I had a M94 transmission in my bike. I ended up buying a used M97, no more problem.

    Look and see what the manufactures date is on you bike. Look here: http://www.largiader.com/tech/oiltrans/

    BMW fixed this problem with the M97. The gears are undercut and when under pressure lock together not letting it skip.

    Let me if this helps you or if you have more questions.
    #95
  16. Vaskar

    Vaskar Been here awhile

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    Feels exactly like you describe. Like I grab the clutch. But there is no noise, or anything else. Happens only in 3rd gear. Almost always but (I think) at specific rpms no mater closing or opening the throttle. But happens 100% when I open the throttle hard.
    This is happening for 3 or 4 years now and never the gear came out or get worst.(with noise or sth else)
    I think I felt it in 5th once last week.
    My mechanic told me to change the transmission when the gear comes off.
    I'll see the number tomorrow and Ill tell you.
    #96
  17. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes

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    Transmission jumping out of gear and back in happens with a jolt and a momentary loss of power to the rear wheel. However, it is nothing like 2 seconds as you described but more like 1/10 second. Most people describe it as feeling like a missfire.

    If this is your problem, yes it does usually happen at the same rpm every time, and usually while accelerating. If you keep riding, it will probably start happening in second gear.

    Repair is a specialist job costing around $700 (more if you have damaged other components.) There are only a few people who can do it and your local BMW shop is probably not one of them. Alternative is replacement with a good transmission. Any other R1100 transmission, except the R1100S, will bolt right in.
    #97
  18. Ridin'nFishin

    Ridin'nFishin Been here awhile

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    Two ways to fix this and I hope you are mechanically inclined, if not reach deep for someone to tear it down for you.

    1. Tear it down and send the gears to Bruno or Anton to have them undercut the dog gears. If you send them the tranny it will cost you a lot more coins.

    2. Buy a used transmission like slartidbartfast said " Alternative is replacement with a good transmission. Any other R1100 transmission, except the R1100S, will bolt right in."

    Bought my tranny off ebay, came out of a 99 R1100R, works perfect. Make sure it is a M97, you have a M94 in your bike. Another M94 will work if it has been repaired by Bruno http://www.brunos.us/ , Anton http://www.largiader.com/index.html or Ruber Chicken Racing http://rubberchickenracinggarage.com/index.html. I talked to Bruno on the phone and he told me exactly what the problem was, "The gears are not undercut on the M94 transmission".

    It will take some time to tear down and put back together. The easy thing to do is have another tranny ready to slap in when you tear it down. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    #98
  19. Rockman

    Rockman Been here awhile

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    Has anyone tried the "Dremel Fix" used for the old XS1100 Yamahas http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5090. I've just done this on my XS1100. Not too hard to do and it works. Seems like the 1100gs has a similar problem with the dogs on the gears as well and a little bit of grinding to back cut them might work. Incidentally, I have a 95 1100GS as well. No tranny probs yet at 143000 km but I expect the day will come. Phil
    #99
  20. katumo_jtb

    katumo_jtb bogus journeyer

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    Very interesting link on cutting the gears with a dremel. If I got the gears out I would probably send them to someone who has cut gears before... probably not that expensive just sending the gears?

    I have a question about the non-undercut gears. If the transmission is just slipping out of gear in 2nd/3rd, it seems like this is not likely to cause other problems, in and of itself. I guess the slipping could cause a little more metal to grind off into the oil, but I don't see how that's any worse than the normal act of shifting. It certainly shouldn't cause undue wear on the forks or bearings, unless they were shimmed wrong to begin with.

    I guess what I'm saying is, the problems of popping out of gear seem unrelated to the catastrophic transmission failures referenced elsewhere. It seems like it should be fine to baby the transmission for a long time, at least until you have a spare set of undercut gears ready. Am I wrong on this?

    Thanks for the info in this thread!