A question I've always wondered about (riding technique)

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by 390beretta, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    I've taken two MSF riding courses. In both the instructors insisted on pulling in the clutch during an "emergency stop". (someone turns left in front of you, pulls out in front of you, etc) This has never made much sense to me because it would seem that allowing the engine to provide additional braking on the rear tire would be helpful, assuming the throttle is shut down of course.

    What am I missing here? By the way, I've ridden for many years and have not followed their advice on the few occasions when I've been in need of a quick stop; also, I do practice emergency braking.....a couple times a year, probably not enough, but I push it until my front tire is "chirping" and my rear is not locked up. I ride a K75, non-ABS. Thanks
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  2. The Jerk

    The Jerk Bring us some fresh wine!

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    In a true emergency stop you are either going to be locking the rear or coming damn close due to weight transfer to the front. If the rear is already at or near its traction limit, then engine braking is out of the equation.

    What pulling in the clutch does is keep you from stalling if you actually do have to come to a stop while also allowing you the ability to click down a couple gears and get back on the throttle in a hurry if the guy behind you wasn't paying attention to your emergency stop. Nothing sucks like needing to be hard on the throttle only to find you're in 6th at 15 mph.
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  3. Earth Rider

    Earth Rider Long timer

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    The quick stop is designed to not only stop you fast but get you into first gear with the clutch in so you're not stuck there stalled if something else is about to happen.
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  4. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Actually, you've both given me a new perspective. Thanks

    However, in none of the classes was it mentioned that one should also be shifting down during the braking process.?? Perhaps just bad classes? Don't know. Also, if the rear tire is locked up, might be difficult to shift down effectively, just askin' , not trying to start a debate. Thanks again.
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  5. Earth Rider

    Earth Rider Long timer

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    Sounds like bad teaching. You lose points for not ending up in first in the MSF class here during the licensing test. I know because I ended up in neutral. The point is getting you ready to take off again.

    I don't think the rear tire being locked would matter with the clutch pulled.
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  6. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    You are missing the rotational inertia of the engine.

    If the braking is quick enough, your engine may be fighting your brakes during the time it takes for rpms to drop down to close to idle.

    If the braking is less than an emergency, engine braking is effective, especially for slippery conditions, as the braking effect is pneumatic (more "cushion") rather than mechanic-hydraulic.

    The other reason, as well explained in previous post, is to be ready to resume movement as needed, in the proper gear (yes, you should downshift during the emergency stop if you can) and with the engine on.

    It is spelled in the MSF Basic Course handbook; check Unit 3 - page 23:
    http://msf-usa.org/CurriculumMaterials/BRCHandbook2011.pdf
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  7. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    Disc brakes must be great.:clap
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  8. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Yes, my friend, they certainly are....but I only have them on the front. My bike just turned 26 years old:D But, I still love her:evil
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  9. motorat

    motorat TBD

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    you approach the stopping area in second gear.
    when you front tire crosses the que cone you are to stop in the shortest distance you safely can downshifting to first during the stop.

    by leaving the clutch in there is one less thing you have to worry about so you can concentrate on the stop and downshift. if you do a compresstion stop(downshift) and still stop within standard for your speed you won't be assessed any points.

    i like to tell my students that on the street if you have to do a quick stop you want to be ready to get out of the area incase the car behind you cannot stop in tme or is not paying attention. so make sure you check your mirrors when you stop and always have an escape route planned. downshifting will get your motorcycle ready for a quick escape.
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  10. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Yes, I always do that when coming to a stop (at a light, etc.) (check my mirrors and have an escape route in case someone is not stopping behind me) I do downshift to first when stopping at a light, always in 1st. gear and watching my mirrors, in case someone is goofing off, high, on the phone, etc. However, I was more asking about an emergency stop. Thanks
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  11. DC2wheels

    DC2wheels Castle Anthrax troll

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    Older BMW ABS- K100RS4V.

    Something comes out in front of me real fast?

    Off the throttle and both hands are squeezing HARD. I am standing the thing on its nose. Very little weight on the rear tire- don't think additional engine braking is a factor at all.
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  12. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Thanks, I'm guessing my reaction would be the same.
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  13. Import

    Import Been here awhile

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    Interesting.... Back when I was instructing in the uk, if you pulled the clutch or attempted to change gear, you automatically failed the test... The powers that be reconed that the only important thing is to stop....engine braking helps.....concentrate on that...
    I wonder if ten years later that's changed..have to say that I still practise regularly, and never clutch in..
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  14. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    I'd like to know that as well....seems we have similar questions.
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  15. Pantah

    Pantah PJ Fan from Boston

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    When I need to stop fast, I almost always end up with the clutch pulled and the bike it too high a gear. But at least she is running. Thankfully, I don't have many panic stops and most of those are on dirt. I have to agree that usually the priority is to simply get stopped or slowed enough.
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  16. DesertTortoise

    DesertTortoise Freedom Fighter

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    In the class they called it "all four down"
    straighten the bike first then clutch in, downshifting to first, front and rear brake progressively
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  17. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Pantah, glad you're here; almost sent you a pm asking you to chime in. I don't have a lot of panic stops either. I like to think it's because of my awareness and riding style. But, who knows?
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  18. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

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    The rear brake is powerful enough not to need engine braking. Also the braking power is more easily controlled when the engine doesn't interfere, especially if it's nearly stalling.
    I was told in riding school to pull the clutch but not shift down because it's better to focus only on the braking. I think that might be good advice for beginners, but never liked it for myself.
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  19. tkent02

    tkent02 Long timer

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    Braking hard from 80 mph in traffic is different from braking hard from 20mph in a parking lot, just as what the MSF class teaches is different from what keeps you alive on the road.
    Think about it people.
    Do you want to be in fifth or sixth gear at a standstill with fast and oblivious traffic coming up your ass?? Do you want to think about throttle control and finger - toe coordination while you are trying your hardest to stop?

    There is a lot to this question.
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  20. JohnnyWaffles

    JohnnyWaffles Been here awhile

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    I took the class in June and like others said, you do lose points for not pulling in the clutch and also down shifting during emergency stops.
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