A question I've always wondered about (riding technique)

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by 390beretta, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. Dexter!

    Dexter! Been here awhile

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    Pull the clutch! You want to stop in the shortest distance, if you don't pull the clutch, the engine will keep the transmission rotating, any rotation will be translated into movement, you want to stop, not to move.

    That's what they told me in a secure driving class I took (we don't have nothing similar to MSF down here)

    Sent from my LG-E610 using Tapatalk
    #21
  2. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    Downshifting and engine braking must be a drum brake thing.
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  3. Dexter!

    Dexter! Been here awhile

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    It's still forward movement... think about it.

    Sent from my LG-E610 using Tapatalk
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  4. Stan_R80/7

    Stan_R80/7 Beastly Gnarly

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    Current MSF doctrine is to down shift to 1st while emergency braking. The reason is to be able to rapidly move if the vehicle behind you can't brake as quickly. Every time I try to emergency brake without pulling in the clutch - the engine dies.

    How do you prevent the engine from dieing if the clutch is not pulled in during an emergency stop?
    #24
  5. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Well, good question. I guess I see a difference between an "emergency stop" and for lack of a better term a "quick stop". For the sake of an explanation, in my mind, a true emergency stop almost assumes you're gonna hit something unless you get very lucky. A "quick stop" assumes that, provided you have the skill, you've got a good chance of not hitting something. Of course either kind of stop can be caused by the same incident....someone turning left in front of you, pulling out from a side street etc. The difference is measured in split seconds, the rider's awareness, anticipation etc. In a true emergency stop, I doubt that I'd have the presence of mind to shift down, worry about killing the engine, etc. Hope that makes sense.
    #25
  6. orangebear

    orangebear Long timer

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    my i did my bike test in the uk in 2007 i was told to go hard on the brakes more front than rear and only pull the clutch in when then the bike is about to cut out then change in to 1st when you are stopped. you fail the test if you pull the clutch in when the brakes are hard on as you will be costing and not having engine braking.
    #26
  7. ibafran

    ibafran villagidiot

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    This. The key word in the OP is 'emergency'. The rider has all of his/her focus on making the stop and avoiding the source of predicted initial impact. Disconnecting the engine allows the proper braking feel to keep the tires doing their best. A connected stalled engine does not allow proper modulation of the rear brake. Nothing quite like getting off the brake of a sliding rear wheel only to have the engine fire with half throttle in a tall gear.

    The dowside of this teaching method for noobs is that they tend to have a more severe panic reaction tensing up and not being able to modulate the brakes and steering much less think of options while in the moment.

    Even exerienced riders can get so 'caught out' in an emergency stop that they execute it poorly due to lack of practice. I can't remember when I had to make a full-on 100% emergency stop? My riding habits are of a sort to keep me from ever having to execute that again. Now that I have typed that, watch me come around a curve and hit a moose due to being so stunned by the sight that I will have completely forgotten how to ride and years of making great habits totally fail me. Sigh.

    BTW, many emergency stops for experienced riders do not end in a complete standstill. Some riders are looking for 'outs' and 'safety holes' while braking hard. Commiting, or having to commite, to nothing but a full-on braking is a pretty good sign that one is still a noob in the situational awareness area of riding. And that does not excuse the experienced rider from further regular braking practice.
    #27
  8. judobiker

    judobiker Been here awhile

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    Growing up on dirt, it has become instinct to pull the clutch. 2 stroke engines stall easier and the lurching, stalling bike can send you into a tree. It also stinks having to kick it back to life after a hard stop.

    A 1 liter 4 stroke may be a little harder to stall, but its also harder to stop and the engaged engine can push you forward with more force. I treat it the same as I would a car with a manual transmission.
    #28
  9. dddd

    dddd Been here awhile

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    in a few hundreds stop lights or intersections, clutch-in & downshifting will be natural to you. dont worry, your hands and foot will do it before you realize... there is no hurry to teach it, every rider figures it out after stalling a few times, even during the course!

    so, during emergency, your natural reaction will be to clutch-in and downshift.

    Just write it down in your phone in a reminder 1-2 years from now, you'll see what you learned then...

    #29
  10. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Uh, thanks; but did you read the part where I said I've been riding for many years?
    #30
  11. dddd

    dddd Been here awhile

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    nope. such question = beginner, usually. oh well.
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  12. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    No problem, appreciate your attempting to help. Actually, I have been riding on-off for most of my life; I'm now 67. Longest I've gone without owning a bike is 13 years. Cheers!:D
    #32
  13. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    When your only option is stopping as soon as possible, everything else is secondary, even downshifting:
    http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=216&Set=

    Practicing emergency braking twice a year is not enough, twice a month is acceptable, twice a week is ideal.

    The key about practice is not breaking any stopping record, but getting use to the way forces that a strong deceleration generates feel on your hands and legs.

    That way, those forces pulling you forward, comparable in magnitude to the weight of your body, don't become an additional unfamiliar distraction when you may or not hit that car.
    #33
  14. Reverend12

    Reverend12 Well there it is..

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    I am an MSF Instructor, Your goal when stopping emergency or otherwise is to be in first gear when you stop, clutch pulled in ready to go.
    #34
  15. ER70S-2

    ER70S-2 Long timer

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    I ride some dirt on almost every ride. Since the LEO presence is sparse, I tend to pick up the pace (a lot). So there's a bunch of heavy braking going on. :D

    In the last three years, 35k, and 4 emergency braking events. Two in the dirt and two on pavement. They were full brake, muscle memory situations, I had no time for thinking (yes, I know, sumya are perfect and would have seen it coming :cry). All four ended up with the clutch in and engine running. Two with the bike in first gear and two ended up in 2nd or 3rd.
    My point is: use the front brake for almost every stop. You want your reflexes to know where it is and how hard you can use it. :freaky

    fwiw: I'm 66 :ricky
    #35
  16. CRP6001

    CRP6001 Photographer

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    I took the ABATE of Indiana BRC in 2008.
    We were taught to pull in the clutch lever and
    press down on the shifter while applying both
    brakes. The catch phrase was "two in, two down."
    #36
  17. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Oyeah! I get what you're saying. I always shift down at lights for example and keep the bike in first in case I need to escape and evade, due to someone not stopping behind me. I always use both brakes when stopping, well, usually only rear in parking lots.
    #37
  18. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    Can you provide a little more explanation re: "two in, two down"? Does the two down refer to dropping two gears? (shifting down at least two gears?)
    #38
  19. 390beretta

    390beretta Long timer

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    The forces you're referring to are no "unfamiliar distractions" to me. While I'm admittedly "older", I always grip the tank with knees/thighs and am fairly strong....been a weight lifter a lot of my life, so have good upper body strength, the forces you refer to are not a problem or distraction. Thanks:D
    #39
  20. CRP6001

    CRP6001 Photographer

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    Two down means pressing down on both the
    rear brake lever and the shift lever. We were
    supposed to shift all the way to low gear if
    coming to a complete stop, so that might mean
    several clicks of the shifter.
    #40