adv 640 wheel squeal driving me mad

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by burntflan, Apr 18, 2005.

  1. burntflan

    burntflan burntflan

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    The front wheel on my '03 640 is driving me F#@ crazy. It squeals. It pops spokes. It refuses to stay true. I've changed the pads. Replaced the DID rim with an Excel. True it obessively. Although, I haven't popped a spoke in 8-days. I'm a hack mechanic who tries, sometime successfully, to fix everything myself but this time I think I may be over my head.
    #1
  2. G.Kennedy

    G.Kennedy ...

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    The squeal ... from braking right .. not just riding. They all do it, just consider it charming. About the spokes though. My stockers were crap. I am still using the same rims, but have taken them to Buchannans in S. Cal for relacing w/ Heavy Duty Stainless. Not problems since. Wheel true and tension can have a bit of black magic and voodoo to it. Maybe you have tightened them too much. Go to a pro.
    #2
  3. Buckster

    Buckster Banned

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    Loosen your front axle clamps and bounce the front end with the brake applied, sorts out my '04 every time.

    Don't know about your spokes though.
    #3
  4. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    there has been a few threads on spokes and brake squeal - search on google for "brake squeal" and "broken spokes" with the switch "site:www.advrider.com" and you should come up with them.

    IIRC, the spokes may break when overtightened - its got to be hard to get them balanced right? (I don't true my own wheels... so I have no idea.)

    Also, IIRC, someone thought that the brake squeal and the spokes breaking were related - Loaded had a thread on this and it might have been in there. maybe when the spokes are being differentially tightened (untrue?) it puts the brake disc out of allignment with the brake caliper and causes brake squeal. for sure spoke tightening could be involved with spokes breaking.

    hope that helps. :thumb

    someone wanna write up a spoke tensioning/wheel truing guide? :deal
    #4
  5. G.Kennedy

    G.Kennedy ...

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    Mine still squeal even after the rebuild. The only thing that makes it stop is riding in the dirt. 1/2 an hour of pavement, and they squeal again.

    I think the squeal comes from the rotor. It has splits in it. Like tounge and grooves almost. I think it creates a tuning fork effect.
    #5
  6. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    ktms are notorious for breaking spokes,,especially the chromed versions,,,they vie for that honor with 'bulldog spokes' and spline drive nipples,,,,

    out east, an old yankee neighbor of mine had an eye opening quote he laid upon me one day...when i was trying to solve a problem using the the same ingredients,,,he told me...'woody,,,,its hard to make chicken soup out of chicken s...!!"

    and thats what's happening to that front wheel of yours,,,changing the rims to suns or excels will minimize the routine bending ya hear about,,,buying better spokes ..ie.buchanans will also improve your odds....

    however i have an even better way...i call it ..SUPERLACE ing..essentially,,,,a combination of choosing an optimal combination of spoke/rim sizes/material,,,lace pattern and blueprinting your wheel,,when i'm through,,you will posses the toughest wheel around,,i guarantee my work for a year,,,customers are still riding around on superlaced wheels i built 30 years ago,,,,,i have used buchanans spokes bent and sized to my specs the entire time,,,you can spend the time you are currently using obsessing over that wheel of yours for more constructive endeavours....watching the scenery en-joy-ing your ride to name a few...[​IMG]

    remember when you buy a spoke kit from buchanans they essentially sell you a replica of what was in your wheel,,,yes they may be a better quality spoke,,,, more often than not the solution is not to put a better band aid on the problem but rather figure out why am i having this probem to begin with,,,fiquring out a better way is my favorite domain,,,

    as for the squeeling brakes ...you can be rest assured there is no correlation between their squeeal and your snapping spokes,,,,brake squeel is a vibration set up beween the pads/disc and caliper,,,,cleaning /deglazing your brakes and pads with brake cleaner and fine sandpaper 300-400 grit is a good starting point,,,many brake pads have an anti vibration pad installed between the pad and the caliper piston...make sure it is there,,,and finally a dab of silicone placed between the piston and pad subdues the vibration that induces the squeal...holler if that helps

    i have written many posts in recent time addressing numerous issues regarding bent rims, better wheels etc,,, you may find more answers there...

    woody
    woody@woodyswheelworks.com
    303-936-0232
    #6
  7. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    here we go again..... the squealing front wheel and broken spoke thing.

    been there doode. ktm has the shittiest fucking spokes on the planet. buy some buchanan spokes and relace the wheels. i have had several breaks.. none have flipped me off the bike. cat90210 had one break and flip him off his 640 at 70 mph. ... so if you think its too pricey to relace think about sliding down the interstate on yer face at 70mph.
    #7
  8. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    :lol3

    Tough Love from Loaded again...

    :smooch

    Woody, you have a price range for your superlacing jobbies? Many are very gun-shy of wheel upgrades because it usually runs in the thousands. Would you recommend superlacing/blueprinting the stock DID rims and hubs with upgraded spokes?

    not trying to hem you into a corner or set prices, just thought that a little ballpark figuring would help folks consider your work. :D
    #8
  9. Pir8te

    Pir8te over forty victim of fate

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    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74623

    #9
  10. gybeman

    gybeman Been here awhile

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    Took the words right out of my mouth. I put new SBS pads in this weekend and just before I came to a stop, it would let out a bit of a howl (front only). I thought, great, I didn't have it with stock pads since they were new, now I've got the squeel back.
    During the trail ride, and after a pressure wash, no noise. It may have been the disc quiet I applied to the back of the pads setting in though. Or the dirt filled in the gaps.
    #10
  11. burntflan

    burntflan burntflan

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    Thanks for all the advice. I've tried pretty much everything except for the SS spokes and the blueprinting, and will consider superlacing. I'm still not convincd the squeal and spokes are unrelated, as (and I may be imagining it) but I swear the squeal lowers in intensity after a spoke pops. How do i know, because since I've been paying attention, they almost always break when coming to a hard stop on a downhill (i live in SF so there's no getting around it). I've been lucky so far, ony once did one of the mothers flare out and get tangled in the rotor/brake assembly but I was going slow and all it did was take some meat out of a non-essential part of the bracket. I definitely don't want to experience the same thing at 70, so I'll try the ss spokes and if that doesn't work...

    G.Kennedy is right. Covered the whole thing in a mud a few weeks ago, rode it home from Clear Creek and it didn't squeal or bust spoke until after it had a bath. Maybe that's the solution.

    Question for Woody. All the broken spokes seem to on the rotor side.
    Is that an indication of anything? That last time I had the wheel off I tried a little experiment and slightly overtorqued the opposite side and did the rotor side just at spec. It seems to have worked so far. Am I just spitting in the wind? Or am I on to something?

    Also, if you don't mind another one, what do you consider to be acceptable run-out. I know a lot of threads say 1/8" but that seems like way too much. When I'm lucky I can get it to 1/100 side-to-side and 1/50 up and do

    One more. Anyone in the Bay Area planning a day trip anytime soon? I just put on some TKC 80's and would like to get some more dirt on them before they're killed by the daily commute...

    Wheel Truing...here's the basics...
    http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/db101w.html
    #11
  12. robdogg

    robdogg turnip truck driver

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    I agree with the sand paper, deglasing. That helped with mine. Also, I recently read in Dirt Bike magazine to never use any kind of detergent soap around your rotors. It appearntly leads to a film build up that can add to the squeeling
    #12
  13. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    this weekend is a big get together in Kernville, CA. People will be there from Thursday to Sunday camping riding drinking eating... I will be leaving friday but showing up saturday AM because I have a stop to make nearby. Check out the regional forums or post a ride idea to the locals! :thumb

    if you want more info on Kernville lemme know. its about 6 hours from the south bay to there but the last part of the ride is into the South Sierra. the desert is just the other side - most riding will probably be there due to the time of year (high country snowed in still).
    #13
  14. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    FYI...we can save you money by recycling as many of the components in your wheel that are worthy of being used again...for example:

    .. the ktm 950 adventure front wheel has super soft BEHR rims that wad up,,,the spokes are ok,,,so low budget upgrade would be to replace the rim with an excel,sun or akront,,,alot of the rear ktm wheels had DID rims that would crack at the nipples and almost all had /have severe spoke breakage problems,,,now you tell me of the 640 and its tendency to snap spokes... and i will say replace em with ss equivalents for an improvement....BUT if ya don't want to have this conversation again...SUPERLACE it and be done with it

    the cost difference between the two techniques is less than $40...you just can not replicate the work and know how i put into a SUPERLACE for the $40 difference

    1..regarding the a-ha s you are having,,,correlations i've observed over the years....
    a) spokes break that have too high a tensile strength to them
    b) chrome spokes break more than any others
    c)loose spokes break quicker than tight ones
    d)wrong spoke patterns for your riding style contribute to
    wheel/spoke failure
    e)the spokes that transfer the energy from the hub to the rim during hard acceleration and severe braking...ie the max load transfering spokes break before the others
    f)soft hubs/rims,,sag and loosen your spokes and are the culprits behind mysterious unexplicable wheel failures


    2..regarding run-out...all street/roadrace machines leave with runout less than +/- .010 laterally and longtitudinally,,,,dual-sport/mx +/- .015...
    on used hammered dirt bike wheels that never go on the road. we will allow +/- .025.......you can get by with +/-.100.even!!!!..the earth and big knobbies are very forgiving and don't give much feedback to the rider,,,as evidenced by most dirt-riders never noticing how out of wack their wheels are...get on the road and ya start to notice the difference quicker

    FYI...the more road oriented your dual sport tires are the quicker you will notice any deviations greater than +/-.020''
    #14
  15. burntflan

    burntflan burntflan

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    Thanks for info. I'll definitely consider the superlacing. What's the typical turnaround time? A few years ago Tim the wheel guy in Kentucky rebuilt my GS wheel and it took about 5 months. I was living in NYC at the time and the bike was stored for winter but still...
    #15
  16. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    most jobs get turned around within a few days,,,we try to have a certain amount of spokes and rims in stock,,,the majority of the work gets done in-house,,,i am at the mercy of BMW,,,buchanans ,,my anodizer and powder-coater...i have to tack on an extra week or two at the most if we need anything from them.

    ,,,we just did a total restore and re-build on a pair of GS wheels ,,,they were in and out within 3 days....

    i guarantee you will not be disappointed with what we do!!!!...woody
    #16