Advanced Rider Training - why don't you take it?

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by outlaws justice, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes

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    Lots outside USA - in fact that's' the default type of training in Europe (there is some parking lot stuff but it's for beginners). There are at least three or four National organizations offering advanced street training in the UK for example, in addition to several private individuals and (often free) police-operated courses.

    Not many in USA, unfortunately. Probably for liability reasons (good ol' American legal system f*cks things up yet again!) MSF has a street class curriculum but I'm not sure who actually gives it.

    Here are a few:
    If anyone knows of others, this might be a good thread to capture them in.
  2. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

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    The Navy contract has two levels of training and you could have taken the MSF ARC instead if you had taken the BRC previously.
  3. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    Not in Japan, and I am not military. Since I had lost my cards I had to do both the BRC and BRC2 theoretically I should be doing the BRC2 again to have a passenger. Fyck that I am not doing it.
  4. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

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    Been a couple years but we have done the Total Control ARC there for the military in the past.
  5. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    They still do, the only reason I didn't have to is because I am DoN civilian, not active duty, so I am allowed to have a sportbike without the added dumbshit.
  6. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

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    I think you would have had a lot better time taking the ARC and got a lot more from it then in repeating the basic stuff over and over. You might even have had some fun
  7. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    Wasn't an option I had to take the BRC and BRC II....trust me, I tried.
  8. Beemer Dood

    Beemer Dood Been here awhile

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    I don't think that "track days" will help very much with these issues. I'll suggest that the real issue here is turning in to the inside of the turn before you have a sight line all the way through the corner. Entering what turns out to be a decreasing radius turn, one that's got a car stopped on the "blind corner," or a "poor road surface" too soon may force you to alter your line. If you're at the limit of adhesion, trying to change that line, or brake, can cause a crash.


    I suggest staying as wide as your lane allows until you can see all the way through the turn, and only then, turning to the inside of it. It may not be as fast as hitting the apex, but it's much safer, and has saved my bacon several times, once when a car was stopped completely blocking my side of the road, and again, when there was a VW–size–boulder doing the same thing. A friend who recommended a class (described and linked in my next post) to me had a truck come around a turn completely in his lane. Because he was not committed to a line yet, he was able to swerve onto the other side of the road, before a head–on occurred. Had he entered the turn before he could see all the way through it, he'd probably have been killed.
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  9. Beemer Dood

    Beemer Dood Been here awhile

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    Streetmasters (http://www.streetmasters.info/precision_cornering/index.html) runs this kind of class several times a year. They use the Horse Thief Mile track at Willow Springs Raceway in Rosamond, CA, about 90 minutes north of Los Angeles. It's a mile long track on the side of a hill, so there are uphill and downhill turns, increasing and decreasing radius turns. Even though the class is taught on a race track, it's not a racing class or a track day. The first part of the day is spent doing parking lot drills, including hard braking and turning tight circles. The rest of the day is spent riding the track, in small groups with a high instructor to student ratio (four students per instructor). The first couple of laps you follow the instructor through the course. Then the students take turns leading while the instructor follows behind. Most of the instructors have Sena communicators, so if you have one, you get instant feedback as he communicates with you through each turn and then as you set up for the next turn. If you don't have a communicator, you'll get feedback after every lap.


    Standard disclaimer: I have no connection .................. except as a satisfied customer.
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  10. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    The exact thing as a novice track school, sans the MSF junior. Again road craft, which is dodging traffic, lane positioning, scanning for danger and obstacles, lines apex, lane placement etc. How to set up for successive curves (think "S" ) compound/multi radius curves and how to deal with all of that. Yup track, it hurts a LOT less to fuck it up there when you have ample run off.

    Many street skills don't apply to the track, but ALL track skills apply to the road, its a matter of extreme.
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  11. JohnCW

    JohnCW Long timer

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    I was being a bit facetious in my comment. If someone rides the remote roads we deliberately seek out, they will be constantly altering lines and speed in 'corners' (if you can even figure where a corner stops and starts). These roads were originally designed by a horse and cart, literally, as they wandered around a tree or rocks that may be now long gone. The local road authority has just come along 100 years latter and stuck a cheap easily damaged surface over the top of the wagon wheel tracks. Don't even think of then as having straights and corners (let alone apexs). More often than not describing them as just one endless 'meander' is probably the best description. The roads are full of repairs done to a budget. Add to this the endless road kill from the night before, lizards laying in the middle of the road sunning themselves, the farmer in his 4WD taking up 3/4 of the road coming round the corner, etc, etc, etc.

    New riders who attend our regular ride group don't crash going across town to get to the ride meeting point. They don't crash on the open high speed good quality sweeping roads. They crash on these glorified goat tracks that constantly thrown up the unexpected, require the riders to be able to change lines in a flash, make a split decision to get hard on the brakes in a corner or 'ride it out'. Basically its all about being able to alter your line in the corner at will, stand the bike up or lay it down (not that 'lay it down'), and brake at any point in the corner no matter how fast you are going. All done instinctively in a heartbeat, there is no time to think.

    If someone is going to teach just one thing in an 'advanced rider' course I trust it's this.
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  12. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

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    Total Control has an Advanced class done in a parking Lot (Not for newbies) hosted all over the U.S. and Canada. Also an Advanced Street techniques also done at Horse Thief Mile.
    www.totalcontroltraining.net
  13. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    :rofl
  14. JohnCW

    JohnCW Long timer

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    :rofl
  15. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

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    Being at the track can and does help with early turn ins and in fact is one of the primary things I got not only from my first track experience but is also a key we work on in the Total Control classes both parking lot and track. Horse thief mile is a great place to work on this as it is designed to emulate mountain roads with 14 turns from tight to sweepers, decreasing radius, up hill, down hill, and limited sight lines.
  16. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

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    That may be the case there, but not here. Yes some roads were built where the wagons used to travel, but when our roads and highways are looked at we have to take into account the vehicles that will be on them and work to design the road, including grades and slopes as well as radius of turns and curves to accommodate and meet certain standards, I know as I have done this.
  17. JohnCW

    JohnCW Long timer

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    We have National Highways, funded by our Federal Government. World class roads, very heavily policed, totally boring to ride and you're better of in the comfort of a car. State Highways, also pretty high standard (not always). Some of them have interesting motorcycle sections (mostly because that section hasn't been upgraded for years), but they are also heavily policed. It's all about revenue, nothing to do with safety. The safest roads have the heaviest police presence, because of easy pickings.

    Then the rest, all the interconnecting roads and lanes are maintained by Local Government which is always strapped for money. They need to get a State grant to do any work on a remote road. Once you get into sparsely populated areas, say state forests and farmland, miles and miles of the roads I described with zero police presence. Much the same I image as the country lanes in the U.K., just less populated and maybe not as green.

    Which would be the most fun roads to ride?
  18. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes

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    Most US roads are engineered with constant radius, constant camber curves. That is one of the reasons why the occasional roads not meeting these "predictable" standards cause so many problems for unsuspecting US drivers.

    Track curves are usually constant radius and camber and usually have great sight lines. They also don't have wet leaves or gravel hidden by a curb or roadside signs, trees, parked cars, etc.. Track riders therefore learn to take lines through corners that are optimized for speed rather than safety. I'm still not saying that track riding is a bad thing for improving street safety but it's not as great as some are suggesting. Those who are claiming it helps to learn better cornering lines are completely full of shit.
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  19. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen

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    A "roads" course like Streetmasters, Roadcrafters, Total Control, and others give you the opportunity to work on your road scanning/searching/setup skills, which is critical to smooth and steady cornering instead of reactive cornering. If a rider reports he/she is constantly making adjustments in the turns I question if that rider really knows how to set up a turn, or multiple turns. Reactive cornering is the result of wrong entry position, wrong speed for the turn, inadequate sightline through the turn, not reading the terrain of the turn (on and off the turn surface), not reading the condition indicators before the turn (gravel, dirt, dust, etc, etc). Once you get the habit developed of setting up turns with active scanning/searching/sightline skills you'll make far fewer (if any) in turn adjustments. Smooth and steady.
  20. JohnCW

    JohnCW Long timer

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    An 'intermediate' level road rider has the skills to deal comfortably with the expected. An 'advanced' level road rider has the skills to deal comfortably with the unexpected.