Adventure gears into a Super Duke Engine? - We'll see...

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by kamanya, Oct 19, 2012.

  1. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    I refreshed my bike in December, 2004 950 Refresh putting a 990 Super Duke engine into a 2004 950 frame. Since then I’ve ridden it in a heap of technical stuff, done a 2 day rally and recently been on a 3000km ride. Maybe 7000k’s in total?

    In slower stuff, the engine was great. Very snappy, loads of torque, refuses to stall and lots of control. The downside is that with a road bike gearbox the spacing of the gears is not great for dual sport. In the faster stuff it’s like riding around in 5th all the time. It’s very bearable but with the price of fuel rocketing it is getting old quick. On the recent trip I had to do 1200km’s in a day. The entire day was with a terrible headwind. At one stage I put a 42 litres through the bike doing about 170kph. That got me 350kms at 7.41 km/l. This is Landcruiser territory. Ok, so I have Keihin FCR pumper carbs, but still, it is a little over the top.

    Riding offroad with the SD gears takes some recalibration. The rev distance between the gears for the same speed is small, so down changing is a two cog affair to get usable engine braking. Accelerating, I started to ride revs instead of torque. Or rowing the gearbox to get to where I needed to be. Nothing game breaking but all this got me to wondering about getting a change of gearbox.

    As KTM doesn’t have a technical help desk for plebes, conventional wisdom on the internet is that the gearboxes are not swappable. All the parts numbers are different and the cases have been changed slightly from the earlier to later years. I have a 2008 SD engine. I spent a fair amount of time trying to find out if it was possible and came up with a big fat zero. I was keen at the least to just change 6th gear. Sort of like an overdrive. If I could just do that then I could easily live with the rest. Buying a new gear is not cheap.

    One evening, I got fed up and thought, “let’s just see if at least 6th gear in my old 950 engine is ok?”. So I headed into the garage to dig out my old 950 engine looking very sorry for itself to find out.

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    Getting the baked on sand off was a bit of a mission.

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    It was still very clean with little sign of a good 65 000km of fun.

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    There was however, the evidence of where my oil had been weeping on the rear cylinder and the original reason I changed the engine.

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    Still, not bad for a heavily used engine!

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    This is what I came for;

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    4 hours later, one gearbox harvested. It looked mint! All the gears and dogs have little or no wear!. Impressive designing these Austrians.

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    Well….

    Taking inspiration from Pyndon, Sakurama, Flanny and the boys all doing great projects, I thought there is only one way to find out if these adventure gears will work. So lying to myself that as the engine needed a service, I might as well take a look see, a few night later I took the plunge.

    It is amazing how fast a bike can be taken apart compared to putting it back together again.

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    Still not too late to turn back…

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    Too late…

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    As we say in the vernacular, Mooi!

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    Trying to keep it all tidy and not lose or mix stuff, zip locks are excellent.

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    My solution to the cam chain bolt issue

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    This looks familiar

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    Next, “I wonder if I can use more than just 6th?”
    #1
  2. Stumpalump

    Stumpalump Been here awhile

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    Where I ride (rocks) I like a granny low 1st gear. I gear my dirt bikes down so low with sprockets I top out real early. I would love that tall 6th gear so I could gear down with sprockets and still have a deceit hwy rpm. I'm sure there is something more to your concern...........?
    #2
  3. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    Yep that's why I had to see if this would work.
    #3
  4. GZERO

    GZERO Fixing stuff around

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    I'm scared of this thread......

    Good luck! i hope you can make it work!
    I would be helping you if i were close by.
    I love projects!
    One advice i would give is buy the gasket kit and change all the gaskets and seals......heat kills the seals and since you're there it doesn't hurt that much.

    :freaky:clap:freaky
    #4
  5. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    Well, here they are side by side. For the unpractised eye, the way to tell them apart, apart from counting teeth, is looking at the primary shafts. The 950 has oil flutes in the shaft as it has a 12 tooth first gear and the SD has a 14 toothed non-fluted shaft. Also, it’s apparent how much 1st and 6th differ on both (they are the top most and 2nd from the bottom gears). So Adventure on the left and SD on the right.

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    Adventure

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    Super Duke

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    Exploded of secondary shaft, 950 on the right SD on the Left

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    So in summary;

    The primary/main shafts are different only in the size of 1st gear. All the other dimensions are the same.
    There is no difference in the secondary/counter shafts (in fact they have the same part numbers).
    All needle bearings, washers and spring rings are identical.
    The gears are of course different only in the amount of teeth they have, their internal diameters and shapes are identical.

    I could have just taken the complete 950 gear set and put it in the 990, but I was worried about the wear factors. So I took what I could keep from the 990 (for wear and newness sake) and added the bits I needed from the 950

    So if you are going to do this, to change the SD’s engine to an Adventure gearbox the following has to be done;

    For the Secondary shaft, keep all the needle bearings, washers, circlips, and secondary shaft from the SD. Mount all the gears from the Adventure.
    For the Primary shaft, keep all the needle bearings, washers and circlips from the SD. Mount them on the Primary shaft with the gears from the Adventure. (you could just use the complete Adventure Primary if you trust the needle bearings).

    One new Adventure gear set for the SD Engine

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    The shift roller bearing was a bit notchy so that was changed but all the rest were fine. Interestingly on my 950 engine, this too was the only bearing that was notchy.

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    Held my breath here, would it fit?…

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    Yeha! Well at least it works while on the bench

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    Now to close it all up.

    This split gear on the balancer shaft was a bitch to get back in. Had me scratchin my head for a while. A drill bit sorted it out in the end.

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    And this is where I am at so far.

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    I’ll update this as I go from here and how it rides once I get it going.
    #5
  6. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    Yep, all gaskets and seals were changed.
    #6
  7. GZERO

    GZERO Fixing stuff around

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    how was the sprocket mount on the output shaft?
    because if you have it apart and the splines look worn it might be a good idea to change it now.

    BTW: that looks like a very upgrade engine, most of the design "flaws" the 950 had i see corrected on that engine........sooo jelous.
    In the end what gears did you finally exchange?
    #7
  8. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    All of them. I should have a normal Adventure gearbox if it all works when I get it going again. Still have to finish building the engine and putting it back into the bike.

    Output shaft is fine, it is from the 990 engine and only has about 15000km on it.
    #8
  9. Peanuts

    Peanuts Long timer

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    You thought it was better to take off and re-use circlips than leave the assembly untouched? Interesting........
    #9
  10. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Goeie Grys Giftige Gert!

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    Nice work Andrew! You'll be the go to guy for all things 9X0 in Cape Town :thumb
    #10
  11. GZERO

    GZERO Fixing stuff around

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    So there is no way to use the short first the SD has, right?

    I would really like a shorter first, in the tight stuff i miss it.
    #11
  12. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    ?

    The SD has a taller 1st gear than and Adventure? If you kept your current SD gearbox and sprocket choice and only put in an Adventure 6th gear combo (remember you need the 6th gear pair) then you'd have what I think your looking for.

    However, the Adverure gearbox has a better spread of ratios so that rock crawling and reasonable road speed is possible.

    If you didn't have a complete spare Adventure gearbox to pick from, then just buying the 6th gear pair would be the way to go.
    #12
  13. GZERO

    GZERO Fixing stuff around

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    oh i'm wrong then, sorry, i didn't check that up!
    But ok, I guess adventure bikes have to come with a 7 speed gearbox, because they need the REALLY SLOW first and a good cruising in 7th gear.

    Don't get me wrong, my stock 950 ADV with 17/45 is close to what i need, but sometimes i would like a slower first for when i'm waiting for my friends lol :rofl
    #13
  14. snowhawk jockey

    snowhawk jockey Slack Jaw Gaper

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    Great project.
    I have used KTM's multi fit designs to combine features and components from little bikes and big bikes on the chassis. The cam swapping, carb vs EFI swapping and now Tranny swaps.

    Tranny gear swaps in RFS motors was a regular thing to go from 4-speed close ration to 6 speed semi-close ratio w/overdrive 6th for high speed dual sport runs and low speed single tracking.

    The fact that you are swapping the SD gears out for ADV gears, showing the compatibility, is SWEET! Should be a first on the board...

    Now to find that 990 SD/R motor with the big valve heads and tall cams, to bolt up my FCR's and tranny! :deal
    #14
  15. DirtyADV

    DirtyADV Long timer

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    Your "Pyndon Syndrome" looked a bit worse then mine:

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirtyadv/8000615794/" title="Rear base surface by DirtyADV, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8439/8000615794_7027f7a816_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Rear base surface"></a>


    Good to know there will be solutions to keep the bike alive after an engine swap, been tempted to pull the trigger on a 990R but that would leave me in a position were any traveling next summer would not be possible so try to squeeze some more life out of my engine, 55 000 kms on mine.

    Thanks a lot for sharing!

    /Johan
    #15
  16. Balsta

    Balsta Been here awhile

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    I replaced the 950 in my SE -06 after 75000kkm with a 990 SDR -09 (the one with 130 hp when equipped with the huge FI and large exhaust). Now its got another 35000kkm with the 990 motor and yes, wonderful powerwise without comparison on low, mid rpm is absolutely brutal (I kept the oem43 mm carbs but replaced the diagrams for rapid response. Made nozzles to fit them to the SDR 10 mm larger intake diam.). I guess there may be plenty more available also on very high rpm but that would take larger carbs or FI plus larger exhaust pipes. Perhaps the SE's control module would cut too early anyway? Dont know.

    On the gearing, I go with small front and large rear sprockets to enable manouvreability at very low speed. I dont really care about how thirsty the bike is beyond 160 km/h and I am not bothered by the high rpms on 6th on the autopista. On the contrary I like the closer gearing better than the 950's and I like the fantastic pull even on 6th. My GPS max says 211 km/h (and there were more available) but that was an awfully uncomfortable cruise with the SE.
    #16
  17. Pete640

    Pete640 I hate sand.......

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    How is this going Kamanya?
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  18. Lc8grrr

    Lc8grrr Vtwin madness

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    Sorry for the threadjack but more info on this would be very interesting (in another thread maybe) as I am told by a reliable source that the factory 660(692-710) Rallys used a slightly modded 6 speed box from the smaller bikes, 450s etc (RFS??) which are very similar internally to the LC4. They would run over 200kph. I would like to do this with my 660 or 640 and I suspect a lot others would as well. I have noticed with my KTMs that a lot of parts will interchange :ear
    #18
  19. MAXVERT

    MAXVERT OG on da OC

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    Does anyone know if we ever got the '09 Super Duke R in the US.
    I can't find any in the Munn parts fitch's.
    I'd like to get a hold of one of these motors and electronics.

    Max
    #19
  20. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    New they are around $9500 in Europe, not even including 20% VAT... Margins are much tighter on engines as well so you are not going to get your Munn discount, either.

    I'd recommend looking for a used one instead. :deal
    #20