Alternative fuel pumps for FI KTM990

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by cjracer, Jan 9, 2009.

  1. shawty950

    shawty950 Been here awhile

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    Hey Auto,
    got 2 question's and train of thought for you...

    Does fuel get more dense when it's cold?...

    What does water do to paper filters?..swelling/closing of the pleats = reduced flow?

    ie from a point of view of being pushed thru a clogged filter?

    I have just started having issues with mine(07 36k km) and pulled my pump apart last night.
    Screen was dirty..ish but flowed well and when washed didn't shed much in the way of debris.
    The hi pressure side filter is paper with an OD of approx 30mm and an id of about 20mm and 25mm deep.
    Had a fair amount of restriction when I blew thru it...
    On inspection it was very dirty and inside appeared to have droplets of water.
    Tried washing it in petrol and it basically broke apart. (and there was fair bit of crap that came out of it)

    If you can give me your thoughts....this may explain some of the issues of cavitation/starvation when it's cold (as opposed being heat induced)
    ...cold fuel more dense thru clogged filter = restriction...water swelling the pleats of the filter

    I put my pump back together again without the post hi pressure side paper filter...and was going to look for something to replace it with/make fit at repco today etc...but what I think I;ll do now is a slimline external EFI fuel filter mounted to the frame with longer fuel line.

    I rode it to work today...and it was fine and the roll on in top gear(that used to bog and miss) was gone. Tonight will be the test as its cooler when I ride home( as well as most of my issues have been when its cooler).

    Anyways...

    Here's some piccies of the filter...

    Screen
    [​IMG]

    Post pump paper filter...lookin kinda crap (is it supposed to be able to have the top and bottom removed?..)

    [​IMG]
    THought it was f'd anyways so I pulled it apart

    [​IMG]


    Shawty
    #41
  2. sp4ce

    sp4ce Orange Invader

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    :eek1 Those filters are FILTHY! The dirtiest I have seen.

    A few notes:

    - The prescreen sock won't shed much when washed. It is multilayer and traps debri inside it pretty well.

    - The sock isn't very fine as you can see and passes a lot of crap through the pump to the paper filter (Obviously, while you are running without that paper filter, all the stuff that you found inside it is going through your injectors and engine. :uhoh)

    - I've had the paper filter come apart in my hands on extraction before, also. The glue was hardened and crumbling. At least at USD 115 a pop, you know you are getting quality.



    As for the external filter setup you describe, I can imagine a few potential drawbacks. 1) Dirty gas is now going to be passed through your pressure regulator. No clue if that will affect it. 2) That same dirty gas is going to be re-circulating through the pump multiple times. No clue if that will shorten it's life. 3) Will relocation of the filter from one side of the pressure regulator to the other change delivered pressure to the injectors?

    I considered the same external filter setup and ended up not doing it because I didn't know the answers to those questions. You can't buy the pressure reg separate from the pump, so if concerns 1 or 2 end up being valid, you are out USD 475 for a new pump.
    #42
  3. crashmaster

    crashmaster ow, my balls!

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    Interesting. On my SA trip leaving later this month, I'm taking an entire spare filter assembly and 2 filter kits. In addition, I'm going to prefilter all of my fuel through a 20 um filter before it hits the tanks.

    And............

    I'll probably still have issues, but its worth a try.
    #43
  4. ADVJake

    ADVJake ***** dweller

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    Wow... and the 950s dont even have filters ?? i'll be sure to buy one for the 990 carb conversion.
    #44
  5. shawty950

    shawty950 Been here awhile

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    I've had a rethink of this...and basically going to try this:-

    - Get a car efi fuel filter...1980's Nissan Skyline...Ryco Part number Z200 or Z387
    eg. http://www.rycofilters.com.au/catalogue/product/make/nissan/model/Skyline/part/Z387
    - Remove oem FPR.
    - Cut off top of plastic that houses the fpr/paper filter.
    - barbed fitting screwed into high pres gallery from pump...then mount car filter..short hose with T piece.
    One - goes down to barbed fitting screwed into plastic base that o-rings to outlet brass tube
    Other goes to OEM FPR mounted via high pressure fuel line with hose clamps.

    OR

    find a filter to replace the OEM one...as long as the id and od are close...it can be longer as their is a bit of clearance with the spring compressed a bit....


    Will mock it up tonight and go buy some parts tomorrow...post some pics sat arvo....could be good...or as you yanks say "An epic FAIL"

    Shawty
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    #45
  6. Autostream

    Autostream Long timer

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    The cavitation track I was heading down related to intake restriction being the cause of the cavitation, the paper filter is on the pressure side, while it is a restriction in its own right, it will not cause cavitation.
    #46
  7. ridewestKTM

    ridewestKTM Long timer

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    I jumped a bit ahead - so forgive me if it's been said. I had a fuel starvation issue on my car and every time I stoped and restarted it was fine. After a few miles it would starve out again. Did this for 100 mi. What it was was a very fine (powder sized) particulate that would clog the filter, then when I stopped it would fall off the filter. I took the tank out and emptied the fuel into a garbage can. At first it looked fine, but closer inspection I could see the powder (I believe it was rust). Put in new fuel and was fine for several years. It did it again later. But in both cases I remember filling when the delivery truck was there.

    Great work on the replacement pump research.
    #47
  8. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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    Sounds like the ol' "sugar in the tank" trick...
    #48
  9. sp4ce

    sp4ce Orange Invader

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    I have seen other motos with similar arrangements as stock (R1100GS). You will want to fabricate some kind of mounting plate so the filter and FPR are secured/supported and don't stress the hose connections.

    The problem here is going to be the off-center inlet hole. I haven't seen other filters like that, but I haven't looked too hard. Another possibility would be to cannibalize the paper element out of another filter and glue it into the metal end caps from your existing filter. Just have to figure out the correct adhesive to use then, right?

    Here's a link from another thread that might have parts that will help or provide information/inspiration: http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/filters.pdf


    Good luck and keep us posted. Respect for actually trying something.
    #49
  10. shawty950

    shawty950 Been here awhile

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    Hey Sp4ce,

    here's what I ended up doing

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492100

    Sitting down friday night and then shopping around on Sat...there was a lot of work basically redesigning the top of the fuel pump that houses the small filter, fpr and outlet gallery for the TB's. And as you correctly pointed out, many brackets to hold it all together under pressure for no that much gain..imo.

    Only issue, with the way I ended up going, is that how I did the post pump cannibalized paper filter...i did cut it so that the clearance was 0 (to the roof of chamber) so the filter couldn't raise off the outlet(offcentre hole) but there is a possibility of the bottom of the pleats flaring under pressure...oh well...will take it apart after the weekend and see how it handles the run. another 3 days of riding to work(320k's) then another 1000 over 2 days this weekend. So will be able to see how it's going by the end.

    Worst comes to worst I'll just remove the paper filter and rely on the inline filter above airbox. fpr shouldn't have an issue.

    On another note re everyone's failed pumps...did any of you notice the condition of each of the filters?

    Could it be that the post pump paper filter IS the problem if it gets clogged with either water, dirt OR both? And that it may not be the pump or the sock filter? Just throwing it out there....

    Shawty
    #50
  11. the foolish fellow

    the foolish fellow UP FOR IT

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    What Does Mounting The Pump Externally Do To The Fuel Capacity ?
    #51
  12. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

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    Sugar desolves in the fuel, but when in the piston, melts as caramel, glueing the piston and seizing the engine. This is a disasterous sabotage.
    #52
  13. crashmaster

    crashmaster ow, my balls!

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    gives you abot 5 more km's of range.......
    #53
  14. cjracer

    cjracer AWD please!!

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    I'm going to try and make 2 more of these blank of plate I use on my Aqualine tanks for testing. If anyone is interested in one let me know. If I put a standard pipe tap threads in for a barb fitting that would be the easiest.

    Let me know, I'll see if I can dig up some material.:ear If I ever get a 990 I'd want the pump and prefilter setup "outside" the tank.
    #54
  15. Yzlvr

    Yzlvr Been here awhile

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    I would take one.
    #55
  16. cjracer

    cjracer AWD please!!

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    Ok, I guess I've got 2 takers already.

    When you get it, you need to use it for something or pass it on to someone that will.:deal

    I'm going to try and get 2 made up in time for the ID KTM Rally. If you'll be there I'll give it to you then. Otherwise I'll send it to you when I get home.

    What Size NPT thread would work the best. What kind of fittings are you going to use? Post up some pics. :ear
    #56
  17. mud master

    mud master n00b

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    Hi Everyone, My Friend On A 650 Vstrom Had Similar Fuel Issues As You Are Explaining, The Bike Would Run 20 Min. And Then It Wouldn't Have Enough Power To Maintain Highway Speeds. I Traced This Problem To Alcohol Enriched Fuel. (natures Friendly Fuel, Not) When We Run Any Other Fuel Without Alcohol The Bike Has No Problems, I Feel The Alcohol Evaporates Too Fast Within The Pump And Then Causes An Air Lock, When You Turn The Engine Off, It Clears And Then It Takes About 20 Minutes For It To Build Up Again. Try Running Non Alcohol Fuels In Your Bikes And See If The Problem Goes Away. Good Luck.
    #57
  18. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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    I ordered one of these last night to try on my SE950R fuel injection conversion. I'll let everyone know how it holds up...


    [​IMG]



    Also got one of these to handle the fuel pressure and allow overage to return to the tank...

    [​IMG]
    #58
  19. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    try finding non alcohol fuels and get back to us.... almost impossible any more, at least around these parts it is. also, if you have alcohol vapor in the pump then you will have other issues! Alcohol (while under normal pressures) goes to vapor at about 78C, if the pump/fuel is that hot then I think that there are other problems brewing.

    EDIT: additional considerations: the system pressure at the veins of the pump is going to be 15-45 psi so this will also increase the "boiling point" of the Alcohol well beyond the "normal pressures" boiling point of ~180F.
    #59
  20. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    Powercell,
    I hope it works better for you than I. Nothing but crap from Aeromotive. Couldn't get there pumps to last even a month. Good thing is if you ordered it from Summit or Jegs, they will take it back when it goes South.
    #60