Alternative fuel pumps for FI KTM990

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by cjracer, Jan 9, 2009.

  1. cjracer

    cjracer AWD please!!

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  2. Yellow Pig

    Yellow Pig Allergic to Asphalt!

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    Husky Number 161 run by Claudio "Burro" Rodriguez in this years Dakar was a 450 EFI bike with a KTM 640 ADV Tank.

    [​IMG]

    They set up the bike with an external fuel pump and pressure regulator.

    According to Alvaro, the guy who built the bike, this is how he set up the system:

    The fuel pump is an external Walbro heavy duty designed for this purpose. The regulator is a Bosch put into the throttle body. This is an open circuit in order to keep cold the fuel pump.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

    Picture of the fuel pump installation:
    [​IMG]


    Not a whole lot of detail.
    <!-- / message --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: ad_showthread_firstpost_sig --><!-- END TEMPLATE: ad_showthread_firstpost_sig -->
    Additional Pictures of the set up here:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/46963616@N03/page5/
    #82
  3. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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    That's a Canondale Fuel pump setup...




    .
    #83
  4. 911racer

    911racer dare to explore

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    Yup, that is a Cannondale fuel pump. I was also thinking that it would work well on a 990. the pressure regulator is very small unit and the pump is a simple design. I have a Cannondale E440R sitting in the garage and have never had any FI problems (over 300hrs run time). A friend of mine has a couple extra fuel pumps laying around and I also know where to buy them cheap if needed. The Cannondale pumps are a simple design with one fuel inlet and one fuel outlet with two wire power hook up. I don't have the time to play around with a new fuel pump system right now. But if someone wants to give it a try let me know and I will hook you up with the guy that sells Cannondale parts CHEAP.
    #84
  5. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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    I've been running one on my SE990R without issue for a while now...


    [​IMG]
    #85
  6. 911racer

    911racer dare to explore

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    Very cool! Are you using the Cannondale pressure regulator?
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  7. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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    The housing, but not the element. The Cannondale runs 3.0 bar, and the 990 requires 3.5 bar...
    #87
  8. 911racer

    911racer dare to explore

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    so what are you using then?
    #88
  9. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

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    Seems not from your description. So maybe 3.0 bars is enough?
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  10. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    WTO starvation would not be a direct function of pressure rather volume capabilities of the pump and associated system's ability to deliver enough fuel to the two injectors running at roughly 70-80% duty cycle. The .5 bar decrease in pressure would result in a overall reduction in fuel delivery for a given injector opening time, which would cause the engine to run lean with a stock map. It might be possible to compensate with a custom map that would take into consideration this reduction, however I believe that running 3.5 bar as the stock configuration does would make it easier to retrofit the system into a otherwise stock bike.
    #90
  11. bkshovel

    bkshovel Old Adventurer

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    Ok fellas, fer us dumb ol' country boys that speak psi. instead of nm. What kind of pressure are you talking about? If I understand correctly the pump you're working with puts out 43gph at 45psi free flow. I gather that' not enough. Summit sells a pump that is 43gph at 85 psi free flow, part # sum-g3138. It's also cheaper, $81.95. I've had good luck with Summit's stuff as far a quality. It looks like a twin brother measures 1.87 x7.25. Probably comes out of the same factory. This with a bypass regulator and a return line to the tank to keep the fuel and pump cool? Am I out of line?
    #91
  12. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    just so us other ol' country folk are not misunderstood, you cannot have "free flow" and 45psi of pressure.... in that if you have a open hose to atmosphere coming from the output of the pump I would call that "free flow" with no head pressure on the pump. In my understanding this is the pumps full on capability to move X number of Liter/Gallons of fuel per minute/hour. So, as described, the Summit pump will flow/pump 43 gallons per hour at a 85 pounds per square inch pressure. Which in this application, given the horse power rating of the engine, this pump would be able to deliver enough fuel to the injectors/engine to support the roughly 100 horse power that the LC8 produces. HOWEVER, we still need to REGULATE that pressure down to a usable level, in this case the stock pressure is 3.5 bar (50.7632082 pounds per square inch), so if we chose to use a fuel pressure regulator that is set at 3.0 bar (43.5113213 pounds per square inch) the fuel rail pressure would be reduced by roughly 7.2 PSI, a ~4.3% reduction in pressure, will result in a reduction of flow through the injectors.

    So we either chose to create a system that bleeds the pressure off into the tank prior to the fuel rail or we do it at the end of the fuel rail, which in most cases for high performance (IMO) is best (end of rail pressure regulation/dump/drainback). The stock system dumps the fuel directly back into the tank at the pump assembly, and "dead heads" the fuel rails at the injectors. So the only fuel that flows is the fuel that is injected, which can lead to higher fuel temperatures at the point of injection and all the fun that comes along with that.... Again, in a high(er) performance application, cool(est) fuel and cool(est) air is best for maximum performance with current fuels and technologies.:deal :freaky :freaky :freaky :freaky third beer for the day watching the hockey game so I might be off a bit.....
    #92
  13. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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    I run a custom adjustable pressure regulator set at 51 psi...
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  14. bkshovel

    bkshovel Old Adventurer

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    Thanks Powercell. That's what I was asking.
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  15. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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  16. madbiker1

    madbiker1 Evilman

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    I just pulled a fuel regulator out of a 1992 BMW 325i with an e36 engine that looks exactly like that. 3.5 bar I believe as well.
    #96
  17. jeremyk

    jeremyk Adventurer

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    Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but running at a lower pressure will screw up air/fuel ratios under "open loop" operation (i.e. full throttle). In closed loop, the O2 sensors will likely detect the lean condition created by not enough fuel (~40 PSI vs ~ 50 PSI) and may be able to correct. However, most FI systems go into an open loop mode under full throttle and no longer use O2 feedback. They use "fixed" look-up tables in the ECU to determine proper air/fuel ratio and those tables are based on a assumption of 50 PSI fuel pressure.
    #97
  18. bikyto

    bikyto Dans le doute...gaz!

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    I thought I'd bring this back to life.
    A few years have past and I was wondering if any reliable solutions have been used and if these could be shared with everyone.

    Thank you in advance! :ear
    #98
  19. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

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    According to my findings there are plenty of replacement fuel pumps with the needed diameter of 38mm. Length is usually shorter at the large dia part, but can fit. The same goed for the connections area and the intake side. Small modifications are needed but not to difficult. The major obstacle is the power consumption. All the car fuel pumps I saw have power consumption close to 6Amps. This prooves too spendy for our electrical corcuit. So when driving in traffic and the fan comes on, the voltage plunges and the motor starves from fuel. I have yet to find a fuel pump with car fuel pump dimensions and motorcycle fuel pump consumption close to 3,2amps rated at 3,5bar and flowing 35lit/hour. Most of these little babies come in smaller packages. Maybe they can fit with some transormation. Still searching.
    Cheers.
    #99
  20. Vicks

    Vicks gets stuck in sand

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    Gefr, i know i replied to your query on my thread that i never had any issues with voltage drop on the toyota fuel pump retrofitted into the stock assembly on my 990 but now that i think of it, my dual battery setup might have had a hand in this. It might have prevented the loss of pumping capacity when the radiator fan kicked in.....