Another ABS argument ( I mean question)

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Drop_Center, May 7, 2018.

  1. Drop_Center

    Drop_Center Long timer

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    Say you are coming upon a corner that arrives quicker than expected and to make matters worse, it has some sand and/or moisture on it. In order to stay on the road you'll need to apply a good deal of braking pressure in a straight line before releasing the brake and entering the corner.

    I had this happen today and it was the first time I was wishing I had ABS without actually having it.

    How does ABS help in this situation? I've read about turning off ABS on dual sports in the dirt, does that theory apply in this situation?
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  2. Drop_Center

    Drop_Center Long timer

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    And, first.

    [​IMG]
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  3. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    How ABS helps that situation.

    You stand on the lever because you know you aren't going to fold the front end, and when you need to turn, you turn.

    If its a C-ABS system you don't need to lift the brake to turn, it will trail brake for you.

    That is the safety blanket, you ride with the goal of not triggering the ABS, but if you do it generally hurts a lot less.
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  4. aldend123

    aldend123 Long timer

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    In the dirt, the concern with ABS, especially with less sophisticated systems, is that it prevents locking of the wheel or insists on pulsing so widely spaced that it is substantially reduced. It may be advantageous to lock the rear and drag it like a boat anchor as it digs in, or tolerate the front wheel repeatedly locking up as it pushes down a muddy hill. On a street bike, on pavement, locking of tires is not beneficial.

    Without ABS on the street, you can attempt to modulate your braking over the questionable surface and try to deal with any lock-up and/or an unwillingness to use full braking power. You risk locking up the front tire and falling, or not having the confidence/experience to brake nearly as strong as you should and blowing the turn.

    With ABS, the primary apprehension is that if engaged, it'll pulse (thus reducing) brake pressure for you when you feel you could have applied more. So... do you think that you could handle the possible locking of the front wheel at speed and still out-perform what the ABS system was going to give you instead?
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  5. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer

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    ^ pretty much ABS in a nutshell.

    People sometimes turn off ABS in the dirt because they want to be able to brake slide for a variety of reasons.

    The important cavet to ABS, traction control and any other rider aide is they are there to help keep you from turning a mistake you've already made into an even bigger mistake. They cannot defy the laws of physics. Blow corner entry speed for the conditions bad enough and nothing is gonna keep you on the road. Come out of a corner with too much speed and hit something slick it can still overwhelm any rider aide made by man.

    So think of it as a safety blanket from you making a bad situation worse than it already is, not a get out of a jamn guarenttee.
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  6. Drop_Center

    Drop_Center Long timer

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    No way I could outperform abs, I like the idea of getting maximum stopping power while concentrating on staying on the road. Thank you
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  7. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen

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    Just keep in mind, with the rare exception of a few very new KTM and BMW models, all motorcycle ABS systems are meant to function with the bike upright, not leaning into a turn or maneuver. Only these few KTM and BMW models now have gyroscope systems linked into the ABS system to tell the ABS controller when the bike is leaned over and so to modify the ABS control logic.

    If the ABS control functions are completed with the bike upright, and enough speed is scrubbed off then yes ABS will help regain control over a low traction situation. ABS is shut off for off road, soft surfaces, dirt, gravel, to avoid the ABS going into fault mode when it cannot speed up a controlled wheel that has piled up/dammed up dirt in front of the tire, causing it to slow even if the brakes are not applied. Another "keep in mind", If the brake is not applied, ABS does nothing but monitor wheel speed. Current ABS system cannot activate wheel/brake control without the brake applied on that wheel to such a point that the wheel is slipping. ABS is only active on a wheel on which the brake is applied.
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  8. Yossarian™

    Yossarian™ Deputy Cultural Attaché

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    My '16 Ducati has a C-ABS system as factory standard.
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  9. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen

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    Right, but the bikes with adaptive ABS that can adjust ABS control for braking when leaned over are very few. Most ABS systems are only meant to maintain stability during braking in a straight line with no lean angle.
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  10. BetterLateThanNever

    BetterLateThanNever Long timer

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    Correct, although IMUs aren't limited just to KTM and BMW. Also, if I understand this correctly, bikes without IMUs are 'unaware' of lean angle, so ABS will do its thing whether you're leaned over or not. It just that it won't help much when you are.

    I recently spent some time chatting with Freddie Spencer about technology like this, and I loved his answer: "You still have to ride the bike."
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  11. Chaostrophy

    Chaostrophy Been here awhile

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    As per an MCN test, a skilled rider could outbreak an early BMW system, but have a manhole cover in your path, and even that crude ABS wins over a good human. And they've gotten much better, I doubt we've changed much in 30 years (older, slower, fatter?).

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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  12. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    Off pavement the results may vary. The reason why some adv/DS have the rear switched to shut off. I have places I ride where the back needs locked to build a bit of a berm of gravel/dirt in front of the wheel to impede progress. If it couldn't do so it wouldn't slow enough. I'd love to have ABS on the front brake though. I cannot think of any time, other than trials play, where I wanted the front to lock.
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  13. bikemoto

    bikemoto Tyre critic

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    The front wheel needs to snowplough just the same as the back, in order to stop rapidly on loose surfaces.

    The KTM/Bosch 9ME system in off-road mode disables ABS on the rear (and the combined braking) to allow brake slides, and has a delay in activating the front to allow a measure of snowploughing necessary to get the bike to stop.
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  14. bikemoto

    bikemoto Tyre critic

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    In KTM parlance that means "Combined ABS", a type of linked brakes that has been around for much longer. Likely the same with Ducati.

    "Cornering" ABS has no simple moniker ,although the Bosch 9ME controller seems to be synonymous. I would have a 1090 except it only has C-ABS not the 9ME controller with cornering ABS. It had me confused for a while.
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  15. Yossarian™

    Yossarian™ Deputy Cultural Attaché

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    It's likely just a terminology thing and no one has perfected an acronym for the system.

    My use of "C-ABS" was from this article that refers to it as such:

    http://www.motorcycle.com/safety/mo-tested-cornering-abs.html
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  16. Anders-

    Anders- 690R

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    Grabbel on the road? I think it would be best if you just lay 'er down :lol3
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  17. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen

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    Adaptive, combined ABS, has to adjust ABS control for the reduced available traction when leaned over. ABS control intervention on conventional ABS starts when a braked wheel is spinning 10 to 20% slower than the actual cycle speed. That means some amount of tire slippage has to happen before ABS control even starts, and as anyone who has felt tire slippage when leaned over is a real pucker factor moment. I have done numerous ABS braking straight line practice stops to learn how it and I work together. I have not yet tried adaptive ABS stops while leaned over, but it has to be interesting.
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  18. bikemoto

    bikemoto Tyre critic

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    They cocked up. KTM does not use the abbreviation C-ABS for cornering ABS; MO misappropriated it when writing about the 1190. KTM defines it as Combined ABS. The bikes with C-ABS (Combined-ABS) is a superset of the bikes with MSC-ABS (Motorcycle Stability Control ABS, aka cornering ABS, of which C-ABS is a component).

    Good article nonetheless. Just a shame they added fuel to the fire of confusing terminology.
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  19. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    Not really my 2014 Super Duke has MSC-ABS....and a Bosche 9M system without an IMU, the difference is in the model number of the abs with is Bosche 9E(something) C-ABS....its the way you tell the two appart because there is a shitload of misinformation out there about them.

    Starting with they are all separate processors, there is the ECM which does engine management, the ABS controler, maybe an IMU, another processor in the dash, the suspension management (if equipped) etc etc. To the point that I thing the 1290SA actually has 9 microprocessor controlers onboard.
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  20. PeterW

    PeterW Long timer

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    Works just fine for me, point being I really hammer the front brake if I need to loose speed, IF the ABS kicks in I back off and try again. With a front end washout off the table it's amazing how much braking you can get out of a bike even on really lose surfaces.

    The other option, and I have done this when I misjudged a corner by so much nothing was going to peel off enough speed, HARD on the front brake, hard on the throttle and power slide around - that works because the ABS still leaves you front steering - not something I'd do regularly but in an "OhShitOhShitI'mGoingToDIE!" situation it has worked.
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