Another ABS argument ( I mean question)

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Drop_Center, May 7, 2018.

  1. advNZer?

    advNZer? Long timer

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    there is tyre slippage happening long before that pucker moment ,well before you feel it.
    #21
  2. mtech1950

    mtech1950 Been here awhile

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    maintain pressure to keep abs engaged, hammer throttle to power slide? lotta work for a right hand.....
    #22
  3. neanderthal

    neanderthal globeriding wannabe

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    Brake hard while upright then lean. Most pros, besides having infinitely better instincts, just trust the bike/ tires further than mortals in a corner. I've gone through corners and thought "how did I do that at that speed" either afterwards or on another day when I came up on the same corner and realised just how sharp the corner is.

    S405 to N101 is one of those.
    #23
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  4. swimmer

    swimmer armchair asshole

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    #24
  5. appliance57

    appliance57 Long timer

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    Some suzukis as well.
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  6. GeneralGarden

    GeneralGarden Long timer

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    on the CBR that was likely "combined ABS", a Honda term for a link between front and rear brakes. One of the front calipers pushes a second master cylinder for the rear brake, so that when you brake on the front, the rear brake is applied too. The other "C-ABS" is cornering ABS, a system that uses several, including lean angle, sensors to sort of guess how much traction is available and tries to brake as hard as possible given the current lean angle. The cornering ABS systems are pretty good, but from what I've heard riding in the rain with the settings on "dry" may make the system brake above the limits and effectively become a standard ABS that pulses the brakes to avoid longer lockups.
    #26
  7. swimmer

    swimmer armchair asshole

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    Yeah, I was just bringing in the first reference of the term C-ABS that I am aware of given that the term itself was being discussed eventhough Honda was using the C to notate a combined system.
    #27
  8. bikemoto

    bikemoto Tyre critic

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    Yes, as used by Honda ,KTM, and almost everyone else.

    No ,AFAIK it isn't, and that is the confusion. I have not seen any manufacturer refer to cornering ABS as C-ABS, only journalists and Joe Public.

    MO misquoted KTM in the article above. If you buy a KTM with C-ABS, you may or may not get cornering ABS.
    #28
  9. TS888

    TS888 Deer dodger

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    My real world experience on a bike with "dumb" ABS -- my '03 R1150GSA -- It works, even if it doesn't have a gyroscope or a bunch of modes. If I overcook a corner, I can pull some front brake and tighten the line with no drama. I've had reason to grab all the brakes from a spirited clip, they'll slow this iron donkey down damn fast but allow steering so you're not just riding to the accident. And I've found you can trail brake and get little slip at the rear on asphalt (at least with 50/50 tires). I think the servo ABS actually provides linked braking from the front brake lever, but the rear is rear only.

    Off pavement, I turn off the ABS. I've forgotten a time or two, and ended up in the shrubbery.
    #29
  10. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    ABS
    Two-channel Bosch 9.1 MP ABS (incl. Cornering ABS and Supermoto mode Disengegable)

    ^^ that is from the specs of a 2017 Super Duke R






    Nor are the fancy Bosche ABS systems unique to KTM, most of the Euros are ususing some flavor or Bocshe 9 chassis management.

    KTM was simply the first to bring one to market on the 1190 Adventure, and made the most noise about.

    On that note Bosche is sort of taking over on that front.

    Milan, Italy – Following the introduction of the Bosch motorcycle ABS 10 at EICMA 2015, the Kawasaki Versys-X 300 ABS will be launched globally as the world’s first production model to be fitted with this system. Furthermore, the 2018 model of the Suzuki GSX-S125 ABS will also feature the system. Although nearly 30 percent lighter and 45 percent smaller than the current ABS 9, ABS 10 still has all the high-level standard features and functions of its predecessor. This makes the system especially suitable for the small two-wheelers that are particularly popular in emerging markets.
    http://www.bosch-presse.de/presspor...roduction-with-kawasaki-and-suzuki-74624.html
    #30
  11. Norty01

    Norty01 RIDERCOACH (RETIRED!)

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    If this happens, you need to back off your pace, until you either "know" the road, and it's idiosyncrasies or pay the price for presuming you "feel" what the road is going to do.

    Go practice "quick stops" on a clean parking lot, using what you learned in your BRC. (Both brakes smoothly) and without abruptness.

    Don't depend on technology as you will come to rely on said techno to allow you to "beat" physics.

    Sometimes, a rider does so many things wrong, that nothing can save the situation. Pain teaches...
    #31
  12. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen

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    Again, the caution is with MOST ABS systems is you cannot be leaned into a corner and clamp on the brakes just because your bike has ABS. At some moderate lean angles, you may get away with a save if the ABS engages while you are on the brakes. Thing is, you may NOT get away with it. Just because it worked at a moderate lean angle does NOT mean it will work at greater lean angles.

    The only way to understand you and your bike ABS is to practice ABS stops to purposely engage the ABS control so you feel how MUCH brake application it takes to engage the ABS. Do repeated straight line stops from various speeds hard enough to get the ABS working so you feel how you and the bike respond, how it feels, what it does to the front forks, etc. My BMW has the Telelever front end so it has very minimal front end dive during heavy braking and the steering geometry stays consistent. Most bikes with conventional front forks dive considerably during ABS braking in a straight line, and the steering geometry changes enough to make the steering much more sharp.

    Once you've learned how you and your bike responds during practiced high effort ABS controlled stops, straight up, you'll then have a better idea of what you and your bike might do during braking in a curve or while leaned over. Again, the big point is, DO NOT haul into turns just because your bike has ABS assisted brakes, thinking the ABS will save your butt. Most likely it will not. If you have the option and need to slow quickly, brake hard straight up and let the ABS help, then quickly get off the brakes and make the bike move around the issue. This is another critical skill to practice and get a feel for, which is one of the exercises we do on the small track at Road America for the Street Skills 2 class.
    #32
  13. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    Alright

    So do you have any experience with this one?

    Because I have a bike that doesn't have an IMU (so no cornering) but does have a Bosche 9 ABS system, and I have asked to much of a cold front tire on the track, like WAY to much, and yeah I went a bit wide, but I was never in any danger of crashing, much less leaving the road surface, and that was setup all the way on the outside curbing for a hairpin, the front pogos and you remove lean angle with a quickness.

    ...and the geometry change under braking is exactly why telelevelers haven't been adopted in racing. Its a desirable trait.
    #33
  14. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen

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    Do I have experience with the front tire sliding in a curve? Yup, couple times, REAL pucker factor those are, and I rode each one out, change of shorts later. I do have some dirt and ice racing experience that may have helped.

    Do I have straight line ABS braking experience? Yes, many times, on both my 94 R1100RS and my 07 R1200RT, and on other BMW motorcycles. Purposeful, done during high effort braking practice and ABS skills practice. So I have developed some feel for what it takes to engage ABS on my BMWs, and also learning high effort braking just to the point of ABS engagement. But I have never attempted and ABS engaged braking event while leaned over. Because, again, ABS control does not engage until a tire has already started to slip AND the brake on that wheel is applied with enough effort to cause tire slip. As an experienced rider, I know to avoid any braking effort while leaned over that may use up my available traction.

    Some riders think the ABS is always engaged/active and applying control during braking, but ABS only engages when it senses a braked tire has started sliding. If the brake on that wheel is not sliding AND/OR the brake on that wheel is not applied ABS is only along for the ride doing nothing but sensing wheel speed versus vehicle speed.

    Do I use trail braking techniques? Most definitely. It is a good advanced riding technique to learn and use. But because my BMWs have the Telelever front suspension there is very little front end dive while leaned over and with the front brake applied. On my other bikes with standard front forks I still use trail braking but I am aware of how the standard front forks respond.
    #34
  15. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Bitch called me a feminist.

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    You should try it, its not the life scattering event you make it out to be. Like I said, the front end pogo's a bit as it loads and unloads, but its nothing like washing the front under a trail brake, again, on a bike that don't have an IMU.

    As an experienced rider I use a track to see what this crap can actually do, which decides how much reliance on it I have said systems, and the fact is that when learning real braking you need a track, its the only way to get the speed up high enough. Pushing the front at 85mph is a totally different beast than pushing it at 25.
    #35
  16. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen

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    On the track, with warmed tires, clean surface, no oncoming traffic, with race gear on I could see trying it to learn the traction/save limits. But then again having reached 60 yrs of age means minimal body damage leads the way. Of the times I have dumped my bikes on the road (four times), three were front tire washouts/lowsides. Highest speed for all was probably 45mph.
    #36
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  17. Pecha72

    Pecha72 Long timer

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    Sorry... you ride too fast into a corner, grab a handful of front brake on a motorcycle, that is equipped with a 'regular' ABS-system (that term will change all the time, as systems improve, but this time I mean: ABS but no gyroscope), and your front washes out, you hit the deck...
    And you think you crashed BECAUSE of ABS...???? I think you crashed because you did a stupid thing.

    Secondly, that ´regular´ ABS system does not actually stop working, when you brake while leaned over. Granted it´s not as smart as today´s top of the line gyro-assisted systems, but it still works. According to big German Motorrad Magazin, who tested on a VFR1200F, it worked just fine up to 37 ° lean angle in the corner. There are a million and one different factors at play, when braking mid-corner on unknown road surfaces, so there is no clear answer to the question: how much braking can you do in that situation on your ´regular´ ABS system. But saying you cannot engage ABS in the corners at all, is wrong.

    If the surface is slippery enough, you can crash riding into a curve with no brakes applied at all. That is good to keep in mind.
    #37
  18. Anders-

    Anders- 690R

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    Speaking of crashing, one can also lose the front in a curve due to overloading the tire (by not getting on the throttle enough).
    #38
  19. psd96

    psd96 Adventurer

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    What if you were in on a sheet of ice in a uphill curve which turned to dry pavement and loose gravel with a litter of kittens on the outside edge and the sun in your eyes?...and Grandma's Buick, with the trunk open stopped just past the apex? Would ABS help..?:norton:twitch:hmmmmm
    #39
  20. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer

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    No. But anti wheelie traction control would prevent the rider from lofting the front to wheelie over the mess which would be worse!
    #40