Another ABS Removal ???

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by Bronco3738, Jun 14, 2010.

  1. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    I've got a 2009 990 and I am in the middle of removing the ABS along with the Canister ans SAS. The last 2 things went smooth, but the ABS is giving me grief. I am following the HOW :
    http://www.ktm950.info/how/Brakes/abs_removal/diy_abs_removal.html

    But the speedo is not reading the new sensor. Before I pull everything out I want to know if I can get the Speedo to work. Otherwise I'm stuck with the ABS unit under the seat. :cry Any ides? I'm out of ideas. :scratch
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  2. Blue&Yellow

    Blue&Yellow but orange inside...

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    Pardon my french but if you don't want ABS maybe you should be looking at a 950? The carbs are better than the EFI...
    #2
  3. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    Thanks, but I already own a 990. Everybody wanted too much for the 950s when I bought my 990. And before you ask nobody had a 990R available. If it was an option I would have taken it but that's how things go.
    #3
  4. Johnf3

    Johnf3 Long timer

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    I guess we are the only ones that have tried this on a 2009 or 2010 with the new style instrument panel.

    I am thinking that this is where the problem is. The "S" and the regular Adventure have two different part numbers and I am willing to bet the issue is that you have to have the "S" instrument panel for the speedo to read properly.

    That's the only thing left.
    #4
  5. twodollardoug

    twodollardoug the calimesa kid

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    i just had a thought..... what about a sensor off of a superduke? the use the same instruments as you guys have. but lenght may be a problem. i could go look at the lenght on my sd if you think it might work.
    #5
  6. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    :deal I'm betting your right:cry. I was looking over the Micro Fiche and determined the 990R instrument cluster was a different number than the 990 w/ ABS. Also my instrument cluster actually has an ABS stamp on it.

    990 ABS 60114169000 $556

    990R 60114069000 $556

    I'm guessing that 1 vs a 0 makes a difference on weather it can read a non ABS type sensor. There has got to be a way to jumper the ABS harness or something to bypass the control unit.

    I noticed we have a lot more wires that the HOW write up shows. I think ours is more "tied Into" the main harness and dash.:baldy

    Sometimes progress sucks.:kboom I have some other plans for that space. Oh well I'll mess with it some more. There has to be a way around it.
    #6
  7. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    Thanks for trying. I went and looked the Duke uses the same sensor we have. Seems KTM have used the same sensor on non ABS bikes since 2006. Hence the part # 62514068100 TACHO SENSOR 06. Same as 2009 990R same as 990S models.

    I think we have to change the instrument cluster. Unless a smarter person than me can figure a way to trick the current system into thinking the ABS control unit was there just malfuntioning. I don't mind the sensors and extra wire but the control box sucks up a lot of room. Has to be away to jumper some wires around to get the current sensors to work without the control box.:ear
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  8. Katoom119

    Katoom119 Mmmm....Orange Kool-aid

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    If the speedo plug will plug into the wiring harness then I would assume that you have the right speedo plug.

    Probably the first thing I would try is to send the plug back to where ever you got it and have them send you a new one. Hey, you might just have a faulty cable.

    To someone with more electrical knowledge than I: is there a way you could hook an ohm-meter to it to test if the cable actually worked?
    #8
  9. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    I would be interested in testing the sensor, but I fear it's something else. 2 separate people (Johnf3 and myself) in 2 different states working on 2009 990 having the same issue, makes me believe it's not the sensor. But if someone posts how to check a speed sensor I will verify that part works.

    I kinda put it on hold for the moment. I decided to put in a switch to kill the rear speed sensor for off-road days. Still doesn't fix the room issue, but I got tired of messing with it for now. It's been apart in my garage for 2 days.

    I cut 1 side of the sensor wire from the rear.

    [​IMG]

    Put some terminals on the wires.

    [​IMG]

    And installed a switch on the ABS cover panel.

    [​IMG]

    It's a solution that will work, till I learn some more about the ABS system. Need to figure away around having the control box, that does not include me buying a $556 instrument cluster.
    #9
  10. Johnf3

    Johnf3 Long timer

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    The 2009 and up Adventures are different then the previous ABS versions because of the instrument cluster change. The ABS removal as dictated in the HOW will not work.

    Unfortunately, we have found this out the hard way. The signal from the speed sensor is is a different voltage--the ABS uses a 4 volt signal and the "S" signal is 12 volts.

    I think, maybe, the only fix (if you want to remove the entire ABS system) is to also install the "S" instrument cluster also. This is cost prohibitive at 600+ dollars, and I can't say it will fix the issue for sure.

    Bottom line if you have a 2009 and up Adventure--complete removal of the ABS won't work it it did on the previous models. The HOW really needs to be updated as well.
    #10
  11. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    Thanks Johnf3, now I know a little more about how the system works. The 4 volt versus 12 volt setups does prohibit interchanging sensors. Still I wonder if there is a way around the ABS control box.

    The BMW 650 GS uses the same wheel sensors we have and the Dakar guys have removed the ABS controller and kept the original sensor. Just need to figure out the wiring running back to the controller and the pins for the correct sensor input and speed output. Maybe we can jumper something together to get the system to read without the control box.

    Oh well more to research.
    #11
  12. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    I believe that the wheel speed sensor is a "hall effect" type and therefore just a switch. so, if the ABS was source and monitor, then sending pulses to the display, then the same would be true for the S version of the dash/display in that it (the dash, is source/monitor for the sensor). So I ASSUME that if you look at where the wheel sensor is getting its reference voltage from you MIGHT be able to insert that source voltage with some form of regulated supply to then take the place of the ABS unit and feed raw data/feedback from the sensor back to the dash/gauge. It might be necessary to do some signal conditioning to ensure that the gauge displays correctly. Here again, more research into where and what the gauge is using will be helpful, i.e. is it a clean square wave coming from the ABS control head or is it just raw on-off DC....Am I making sense?

    I have a 990 in right now, don't remember if its a 09 or later, if it is I will take a look at it and see if I can come up with some ideas.
    #12
  13. Johnf3

    Johnf3 Long timer

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    Well, we have thought along those lines as well too. Here is what I can tell you...

    The ABS is 4 volts straight DC positive and then negative. The "S" sensor is 12V, and is a clean square wave. Yes, it is a "hall effect" switch.

    The ABS version gets it's speed signal from the ABS ring, which has 30 or so signals per wheel revolution. The "S" gets its signals from the rotor bolts--six times per wheel revolution.

    My point being that even if you figured out the voltage to use, you still would have to figure out a way to adjust the wheel size, because the pick up frequencies are so different. I have no idea how the wheel size is adjusted on the new instrument panel, and I am quite sure it is not infinitely adjustable.

    I think we're stymied.
    #13
  14. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    Thanks for the input Head2Wind.

    Johnf3 I think what Head2Wind is stating and what I was also referring to, is using the ABS sensor and ring not the "S" sensor. Taking the ABS sensor signal and figuring out how to get that signal to the Speedometer. So you wouldn't have to recalibrate the signal or the gauge.

    I did notice while looking at my bike vs the HOW article, the 2009 bikes have another wiring harness that runs down the left side of the bike from the ABS control box back to the dash. There are several plugs in this harness by the ABS unit, 1 is blocked and 1 has a shorting plug on it, the other goes to the ABS unit. Not sure what it's all for, but it's a significant bundle of wires. You can see these plugs in the center of this picture. They are in front of the unit with the blue/white wires.

    [​IMG]
    #14
  15. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    No prob... FYI the ECU tuning interface plug is parked back there with the ABS pump/controller, is it that plug/cable assembly that you are referring to?

    I agree, keep the 30/rev tone wheel, feed it with correct vDC, condition as needed, output pulse to speed display. there are some really stable 5+/- vDC fixed and variable voltage regulators on the market.

    #15
  16. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    There are 3 plugs near the ABS unit. There is a 2 wire plug with Blue/grey pair from ABS connected to a Orange-green/ teal pair running to the dash(?). If you unplug this or the ABS unit Speedo display won't display speed. This must be the signal wire leaving the ABS unit to the dash.

    There is a white plug of the same type with blue-white/ blue-black pair but blocked off. There is a clear multi-wire plug, it looks like it's just a block-off plug. So these 2 blocked plugs might be the ECU interface you refer to.

    Now this confuses me more because I thought the long flat plug under the glove box was for the ECU diagnostics.

    Another clue? There is that triangle light on the dash which lights up with the key. This used to be where the older bikes turned off the ABS. On the new bikes it's a hazard flasher. ABS kill swith on the intrument cluster. There are a huge number of wires going to this plug. Can't remember now but I don't think the Speedo work when I unplugged this.

    Your power supply theory makes sense.

    But may not be necesary. I copyed this from "The Chain Gang" website here:http://faq.f650.com/frames.htm

    "seh750 managed to remove ABS from their bike. After removing the ABS unit itself, they found the speedo did not function. The solution: According to the wiring diagram, the speedo signal goes straight from the ABS to the dash and does not go to the BMS. I figured it out, either my bike is different or the wiring diagram I looked at is different, but swapping pin 1 and pin 3 solved the problem..... Pin 1 and 3 on the ABS connector. Pin 1 (white with black stripe) connects to pin 24 (yellow) and pin 3 (white with brown? stripe) connects to brown/ground (don't recall the pin number). - So yes, you can remove the full ABS system, and using seh750's suggestion, still have the speedo working."

    Sounds like they ran into a similar problem. This is where I got the idea of keeping the current speed sensor and tone ring. I don't have a 2009 or new wiring diagram. I have the service mauals up to 2008. I haven't found a source for the 2009 up service manuals.

    Question 1. What are the signal wire pairs coming into the ABS unit from the front wheel?

    Question 2. If you know this input pair can you "jumper" them to the signal wires going to the dash (the Orange-green/ teal pair mentioned above)?

    Thanks again for the input.
    #16
  17. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    flat connector at the glove box is for the alarm system. the white tri wire connector at the ABS unit is the ECU interface.
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  18. Johnf3

    Johnf3 Long timer

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    Well, ended up reinstalling the ABS wiring harness and the ABS ring on the wheel and everything except the ABS pump itself, since the brake lines were replaced with the "S" brake lines, which enable you to get rid of the pump.

    All speedo/odo instruments work fine again.

    Unless someone else comes up with something better, this is as far as total ABS removal can go on the 2009+ Adventure. Brake feel is much much better not going through the ABS pump, so not a total waste of time and money.
    #18
  19. Bronco3738

    Bronco3738 Mike

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    Thanks for the update. Just spent most of today messing with mine. Head2wind has given me some more things to try, but nothing has worked so far. I still haven't figured out how to remove the pump either.

    He suggested using an Oscilloscope to figure out what the out put from the sensor is and a Signal generator to excite the speedo. Then use that info to figure out what you need to convert the current sensor to something the speedo reads without the ABS unit.

    He suggested this.
    http://www.usbee.com/sx.html

    It's a little over my head but that never stopped me from trying.:confused
    #19
  20. RoundOz

    RoundOz Plenty of seasoning

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    ....for not reading the entire thread, but couldn't you just get in the habit of turning off the ABS when you are heading for dirt? Or turning it off as part of the starting ritual? Or are you trying to save space and weight by removing that big ABS unit?

    I personally like the option of having it - have not owned an ABS bike before, but I like to think that the 2 extremely close calls with deer I have had were avoided because of the ABS. Maybe not, but I regretted buying the R model enough that I like to have something about the non-R that I like more:D

    I slid down the road at 90mph once years ago because I locked up the rear brake in a slight curve when I found the geriatric driver doing 10mph over the crest of the hill on a 60mph road (said he was looking for where he needed to turn off). There was traffic coming the other way and a guard rail, so nowhere to go. ABS may have prevented the get-off.

    BUT...and here is the other side of the story...if I had not dropped the bike and slid, it would not have been able to stop in the distance I had and I would have hit the rear of the car and catapulted over it. As it was, I tumbled on my side far enough to hit my elbow on the rear bumper, while seeing multiple glimpses of the Suzuki 1100 tumbling through the air and landing in the ditch upside down (those images that get locked in your brain!)
    The damage was a rebuildable bike, a sore elbow (actually whole body in pain) about 4 square inches of flesh removed from my right buttock down to the muscle and a wallet worn in half and $10 gone.

    The moral of the story in regards to ABS? Who knows? I like to think that a higher force made me lock up the rear brake for a reason...20-odd years later I am still waiting for my great contribution to society, but really I have been pissing away my life ever since:photog
    #20