Another alternator hits the dust and not under warranty

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by C5!, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,005
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    We will be waiting :clap
  2. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
  3. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,005
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    I asked this question a few pages back...
    I don't think the F800S and F800ST are seeing 50% failure rates by 50K miles are they....???:huh
    WTF are we doing wrong? :lol3

    I am in contact with the sales manager at Electrosport, they intend to get an OEM stator and analyze it ...
    I have passed on Joel's thermocouple readings, and will post back here with any discoveries by Electrosport.
    I don't know what their timetable is for the project yet,
    but told them to hurry based on the 50% failure rate @ 50K miles :deal
  4. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,699
    Location:
    Parker, CO
    I suspect the average speed is higher and more air cooling may help them since we go off road and slower.:1drink
  5. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    To the knowledgeable parties here:
    What inforamtion can you give me re: an upgraded RR? I am happy to contact these people to ask about an upgraded unit with OEM style connections. They alraedy make them for the S and ST.

    What would the ideal RR be for our bikes. What is needed?
    Thanks in advance...

    looking at MOSFET
    50 amp capacity
    What else is needed?


  6. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,005
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    Maybe the combination of lower average speed and bash plates blocking air flow explains it ...

    Joel: When you took thermocouple measurements did you do any runs down the road or were the tests "driveway" based?

    GP:
    Erling has one of the MOSFET regulators on order .... now that I think about it ...
    Erling: Do you have a thermocouple for before and after testing?

    In other news, I got a reply back from ElectroSport today regrading a redesigned stator:

    "Thanks for the info Jim. We're going to take a look into the bmw stators in the near future. When we move further forward with production and have sample or final parts I'll let you know. Thanks again for the info!"
  7. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Ok, that's fine. I was going to check with Regulatorrectifier.com as well. They are in CA and make RRs for motorcycles and ATV's. They also have stators so a good source for one stop shopping. They can make things to spec size and requirements. They also already have the BMW plug and play versions for other bikes. No need to reinvent the wheel.

    Thiers is MOSFET with a 50 AMP capacity. Runs cooler.

    What I was looking to find out is if there are other requirements to make them aware of. All they said they need are the size and shape and they can make one that will work and run cooler.

    It seems to me that cooler is good but the right draw or capacity is more important if we are looking to cool the stator.
  8. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,005
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    I'm not smart enough to give them the specs, I can tell you that .........
    I have an EE buddy that's going to compare and contrast the MOSFET design to the OEM Shunt design later this week. If he gets it thru my fat skull I'll post what I have learned ... :lol3
  9. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    From what I am reading and (sort of) learning....

    MOSFET
    Series type
    50 AMP capacity (but the actual output capacity will be determined by the stator on our bike)
    Sized to fit the stock location

    BMW wiring harness or wire it direct by splicing in and wiring 10 guage to the battery?
  10. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,601
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    JR.... When I get to it next week... I will do a complete write up... With readings before and after the install. It will mimick my typical CF threads so as to aid and inform all who want to do this mod. My main goal is to raise the charging voltage to 14.3 plus..... Side benefit.... stator runs cooler , and lasts longer.:thumb:thumb

    Erling
  11. MTrider16

    MTrider16 Ridin' in MT

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,864
    Location:
    Eastern Montana
    Erling, are you planning on having stator temps also? David
  12. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,601
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    I don't have the tools, beside a infrared thermometer, but as Joel said....and I agree with the IR tool don't read good on the alloy of the casing. I can shoot it before and after.... but it would be an inconclusive test. :thumb:thumb

    Erling
  13. vtbob

    vtbob wanderer

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Oddometer:
    670
    Location:
    Western Vermont
    Re Mosfet comment FWIW...a bit out of context because so little is known about the stock components and circuits.

    I have no specs/on the semiconductor devices in the stock regulator. They may also be mosfet. Do we know?

    As a general statement, Mosfet typically have less forward drop vs corresponding other semiconductors. Mosfets also are typically more fragile, as they are often just many parallel mosfet devices on a single die...ie the weakest link syndrome.
    Less forward drop also means the RR runs cooler...but RR overheating does not seem to be the problem.

    Lower forward drop also means more current thru the stator, more current shunting to ground. Loading the stator more. Seems a worse than stock case on first blush.

    If this new vendor knows how to make the stator more robust, more heat resistant, that would be a real plus. While keeping the 400W output.

    There may be some who would want a lower output stator...say 300 W if that would improve reliability. survive the F800 engine invironment.
  14. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,005
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    Even in cold weather riding, since I don't have many power-sucking farkles,I do not require the total 400W of output. If we don't find a better solution (and we might ... I'm still hopeful) I'll likely add a set of current-limiting resistors to my stator leads.

    Honestly, I don't know what BMW was thinking (or not thinking) here ... :cry
  15. MTrider16

    MTrider16 Ridin' in MT

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,864
    Location:
    Eastern Montana
    I agree also, but there are some things to make it more reliable. Black electric tape will always have the same emissivity. If the case is clean, apply a strip or two, then always point the IR gun at it using the same angle and distance for every measurement. You can usually wipe the electric tape clean with a dry rag. Also since you are using the same gun, the same case cover and the same operator (you :deal) you get rid of some of the variables. Then you only use the temperatures in a relative comparison.

    If you tell me your case is 97 degrees and I compare it to mine which I see at 82 degrees, the measurements mean nothing. But if you take the measurements before and after on your bike and see a difference of 15 degrees, that would have more meaning.

    You could also use your wife's meat thermometer as a contact probe. Just don't blame me if the fallout is less than pleasent. :bash

    Just a thought.
    David
  16. c6gc2bch

    c6gc2bch Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2012
    Oddometer:
    8
    We did a full evaluation for a un-named manufacturer to use this OE. Never a warranty return unless hooked up backwards. Sadly the economy killed that mfg. But no warranty on over 1000 bikes before their end. We do not sell retail or mail order.
  17. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,601
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    :lol3...... Yeppers..... I could go and get a thermocouple......or another remote thermometer.. But I think the variable here is how to make sure the case side is heat cycled evenly by the motor in both tests. Like... 10 minute ride....idle for 5 minutes....then measure. Since I cant place it ( probe) directly on the stator you have to factor in latent heat from the engine.....and it seems to me that that would vary the results to the point that the tests would be inconclusive. On the ir side..... about 2 years ago, we were trouble shooting our left leading edge on the aircraft. You see we use hot compressed air from the motor at about 500 deg.........guiding it into the leading edge of the wing ( and other parts of the aircraft) to make sure the wing do not ice up. One side did not function well The skin is aluminum......and none of out 5 different IR meters could clock the temperature correct. The temps were around 400 deg.... verified with a coupler....but all the ir's read in the high 190's..... nothing we could do to change that. After that I realized that certain materials does not reflect an accurate reading using the IR thermometer. All that said.... If we can come up with a reliable test.... I'd get the coupler.......:thumb:thumb

    Erling
  18. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,601
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
  19. MTrider16

    MTrider16 Ridin' in MT

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,864
    Location:
    Eastern Montana
    Compressor Discharge air? (PCD) We have some aeroderivitive industrial turbines at work.

    Good point about the evenly cycling the motor on the F8. It will be interesting to see how the test goes.

    David
  20. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    :freaky:evil:1drink
    Been reading up on shunt vs. series and CANBUS concepts. I am becomming convinced the series may be the way to go if the goal is to reduce stress on the stator.

    Read Joel's posts earlier re: noise and if the newer series regulators are less noisy (as they claim) that that is also good. For CANBUS the added noise actually should not be much of an issue b/c canbus is said to be more noise tollerant b/c it is looking for specific input markers and therefore filters noise by design.

    From what I gather Shunt type requires the stator to work at max output all the time = heat in both RR and stator. A series RR only draws what it requires for the bike, lights, charging and accessories needs at any given time, so it actually reduces stator work and thereby also reduces drag on the motor. As Joel noted advantages are a) cooler stator and b) slightly improved gas mileage via less mechanical drag on the motor.

    Reading many reports of people using series regulators on bikes without ill effects. Not sure how many of the bikes are canbus so that is the one dark mystery in the change.

    Almost thinking about doing it just to test it out. Than again I may not be the best test subject b/c I keep my bike connected to a charger all the time it is in the garage so batttery draw down is unlikely to occur on my bike. I'd be making the change just for stator life and bike efficiency.


    There are the two I am considering. Both are about $160~$180
    Compufire 55402
    Cycle Electrics 605 SB

    I'm thinking about guinnea pig'n it.

    Anyone want to buy one for me? :lol3:freaky:D:1drink