Another alternator hits the dust and not under warranty

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by C5!, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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    They specify heat for the 650 single as well, those not using heat struggle to release it
  2. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    I bought a 14mm hex wrench for a 1/2" drive today. That's for the bolt on the end of the crankshaft. It's a really nice bolt for turning the engine to find TDC, but the spark plugs gotta be out. So I spent the evening removing plastic bits, and the air box, and the plugs. Kinda damaging one of the coils, geez.

    I found a BikeMaster flywheel puller, "Honda Puller MP11" is probably the correct one. Both rotor's have Denso printed on the side. Hence my confidence a Honda puller is right. about $18 at my local new/used motorcycle parts place, Bent Bike. Its nothing more than big 22mm 1.5 bolt with a square flat end. a nice bolt would probably work too, if that can be found.

    I bought a 8mm 1.25 50mm bolt to use as a TDC locking bolt. BUT, the hex headed bolt head runs into the case before the pointy end solidly locks the crankshaft. There's slot cut into the crank for the bolt to squish into, when i can't turn the bolt anymore I still get some wiggle on the crank. tomorrow I'll get an allen head that will be smaller in diameter.

    And I can try and locate some Loctite 648 http://www.henkelna.com/adhesives/p...anguage=en&BU=industrial&redDotUID=0000000HWR
    It's used on the tapered end of the crankshaft and the big screw threads. that's why heat is needed to break things apart. The stator screws use blue loctite. the cover screws don't use any, but they have a weird torque pattern, not what I'd guess, maybe that's why mine leaked.

    More pictures when some real progress falls on my head. bobo
  3. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Bobo:

    When I replaced my cam chain tensioner I was able to turn the bike over without removing the plugs by putting the bike in center stand in 6th gear then lying on floor and rotating the back wheel slowly with my foot while peering into the TDC hole to find the slot in the crankshaft web. .... an assistant would have made this much easier but the neighborhood was empty at the time.... :lol3

    M22 is an "odd" size ... somebody may carry it, but let us know if the Honda puller works!

    The locktite 648 explains the heat - THANKS!

    And yeah... apparently the order of tightening the side cover bolts is REALLY important ... important on the clutch side also...

    Best of luck!
  4. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    I got the airhead running right again today (that's a different silly story), and at the good hardware store i got two more 8mm 1.25 bolts with allen drive heads to fit as TDC locking bolts. one is 50mm the other 45. The issue is all the weird clearances. A hex bolt head runs into the case and didn't seat well into the crank. The 50mm allen bolt I bought today probably doesn't have enought thread length to do the job either. The 45 worked well. More on all this crap when i take the bolt out of the engine later.

    But I got the rotor off, nice and smoothly, as advertised.

    Up to this point in the story the right cover is off and hanging loose.

    [​IMG]
    The 14mm hex wrench is thrust into the big nut on the crank. Penetration is disapointing, maybe 3/16"

    Now is when the Top Dead Center screw is easy to feel into place. With the big wrench on the crank and a gentle touch on the TDC bolt it was simple to "feel" the screw into the almost invisible slot on the crank. As mentioned above I had to pull the spark plugs out to figure out where TDC is, JR did it with the plugs in place, ymmv.

    Ok, there's no rocket science here, just a big tight bolt. Lefty loosy, I had set my torque wrench to 105 ft/lbs = about 140NM (the tightening spec). I got to the click, nothing budged. I sat down with my adult beverage and turned the 1250 watt heat gun to max. Three or four minutes later I tried the wrench again. Then......

    [​IMG]
    the bolt smoothly comes loose, with constant pressure, a little beyond the torque wrench click. a minute or so later after the high fives and pictures, the bolt and rotor were no where near hot. this step didn't take much heat, maybe none.

    [​IMG]
    in this hole, where the puller(pusher) is headed, I was concerned that it looks like there's some kinda coppery colored washer. That's not in the plan, will it crush in some unplanned way?

    [​IMG]
    Way to close up of the special puller/pusher tool. a more advanced device may never by made, I hope it doesn't break.

    [​IMG]
    penetration...........I did smear a little dirty motor oil on the end of the puller_pusher where it contact the priceless crankshaft, because it was already in the bottom of the rotor.

    Refresh your adult beverage at this intermission, I did.

    bobo
  5. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    I'm following the NBC lead and annoucing the winners early.

    Now for the tape delay.......

    while you were out refreshing your beverage, and whatever, I was pointing the heat gun on max towards the center of the rotor. 3 or 4 minutes, I try the wrench again. The 105 ft/lbs clicks at me with a laugh.

    More beverage, more heat gun. Wrench again......this seems odd.....this feels like a bolt coming apart, very tight, relaxing in a very slow manner. but, it's working. at or about the click on the torque wrench, the puller started moving in. It was quite tight for the first few turns. There was no "crack" as things broke loose.

    [​IMG]
    This mess is HOT!!!!! But nowhere near the 100C as suggested in the manuals. See the goo residue on the shaft. It wiped off easily.

    Now the rotor is off, goal #5c. Now I need to find some Loctite 648 and re-assembly should go much faster.

    bobo
  6. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    Due to beverages and boredom I took pictures while I was down on the floor....

    [​IMG]
    in focus, that's a bonus. The BMW service manual calls the big gear the "freewheel gear". Next up to the right is the "intermediate gear" hidden behind the big thrust washer. this shaft fell out when i first took the cover off. then are more starter gears.

    [​IMG]
    New rotor with big holes, six screws, and no place for a classic puller on the left. Bronze finished old rotor on the right, it would make a good ashtray. This side goes out, toward the world. The stator coils live inside normally.

    [​IMG]
    The back side, toward the engine. I'm not sure which thing is the starter clutch, either this bearing inside the carrier bolted to the back of the rotor, or, the bearing thingy on the "freewheel gear". Which means, starter clutch problems, will require major engine surgery, like on this page.

    [​IMG]
    Close up of the crankshaft position sensor. Yep in focus again.

    [​IMG]
    As best I can figure, looking around close, this hole above the starter motor is where the oil gets into this side of the engine, for these gears, and maybe cooling? The hole might drain the valve cover area?

    [​IMG]
    At the bottom of the case is another hole where the oil goes out, assuming normal gravity. the location of the scoop thing probably explains why all my oil leakage happened about 4oclock, on the engine cover, not before cocktail hour (it leaked all day). My exhaust pipes normally have the nice protective dust cover, the thick oil covering is fresh in the last 3000 miles.

    [​IMG]
    Bonus, in focus. The gasket is much easier to remove when the rotor is out of the way. It was burnt in place in random spots and need lots of detail work. but it never stuck to the cover, only the engine side. There is goop from the gasket and burnt bits from the old stator, everywhere. An oil change is in order shortly.

    Reassembly when i can locate the Loctite 648. Pictures of the TDC bolt, after that.

    bobo
  7. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Bobo:

    THANKS ...
    your detailed pictures show our bikes use a different flywheel than the what is pictured in the "oil cooling" modification to the Buell which was "supposed to" use the same flywheel as our bikes..... or so it was rumored...

    http://www.erikbuellracing.com/stor...-2010-charging-system-rotor-modification.html

    It is similar, but theirs is splined where it meet the crankshaft ... and I can't figure out how that little hole would be exposed to oil and be able to feed it into the stator area .... :huh

    There is one image of the oiling system in the official BMW shop manual,
    but it does not show how the flywheel side of the engine is lubricated.

    Did you see any oiling "features" on the tapered end of the crankshaft where the flywheel sits?
    It looks like the flywheel has a keyway machined into it, but I don't see a matching feature on the crankshaft ...
    or is it just the angle from which the pictures are taken or is the keyway actually un-used?
  8. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    [​IMG]
    Mostly in focus. The keyway has a key in it. in the reassembly instructions there's little said about the key except to make sure it's there. Definately there's a slot in the flywheel for it.

    If your're thinking there's some more passages or squirters or sprayers to provide a flood of cooling oil, you'll be disapointed. You can see the horizontal split of the engine case, the crank runs through it. Besides that there's nothing on this side (not even a place to smuggle diamonds).

    The Buell fix is similar but obviously a different part.

    [​IMG]
    Probably illegally cut out of the service disc. BMW calls this "Oil system Functional views and overview"

    The big oil passage that runs horizontally about through the middle of the engine is plugged on the right side by the cover. two things here.....1. if the upper portion of the cover is loose or damaged and that big oil passage can leak, a guy would probably loose all oil in a few seconds. 2. Rotax could have provided some small amount of cooling oil from this passage to inside the right cover.
  9. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Bobo..... This is fantastic of you to cover this with pic's...... Thanks a whole lot.
  10. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Thanks Bobo...
    Yes ... I agree the Buell parts are materially different than our setup .... so I don't think the oil cooling will work ... :cry

    Let me add my thanks for your great pictures!
  11. Downs

    Downs KK6RBI

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    You can add an 07 F800ST to the list. 34,900 miles crapped out on me today during the heat of the day during a 50 mile ride. Had to have a buddy come out with some jumper cables so I could limp her home.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  12. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    I'll bet i'm the only one on the lake with one of these......

    [​IMG]
    the mystery glue that holds the engine together.

    Stand back peeps, this cost me almost $30 delivered from Portland OR (150 miles away, it took 28 hours, UPS needs more motorcycle delivery men). But I have enough for the entire state of Washington, this month. I'll sell this little bottle to anyone for $20, after i squeeze 8 drops out.

    OR, I was able to use old technology, the Bell Telephone, to call a nice man at the R.S. Hughes company, 877-774-8443. He set me up with manufacturer ID #21443. That is a 10ML bottle of this magic elixir, Loctite 648.

    Re-assembly begins next Tuesday, August 14, when it seems nothing else of importance has ever happened.

    bobo
  13. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    Hey BoBo do you have the new part number for the new flywheel and stator?
    I might as well order it since it looks difficult to drill our stock Flywheels to match the air flow holes they added to the new flywheel. Also Electrosport seems to be dragging their feet on making replacement stators.
    Thanks.
  14. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    Hi Dan,

    You need:

    Generator assembly: 12 31 8 524 422
    And probably a new gasket for the cover: 11 14 7 670 688

    Cheers
    L
  15. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Indy:
    I'm not trying to talk you out of the BMW version, but Electrosport started their production order several weeks ago.
    I do not know what the ETA is for parts, but if you send an e-mail to: info (at) electrosport.com they can update you with current status. Price should be less than $150 USD

    (For the record I have no affiliation with Electrosport)
  16. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    I was hoping for their solution but they are not taking orders and do not have a date when they will be taking orders.:ear
  17. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    I shot my contact an e-mail earlier today and got this reply:

    No exact ETA yet, but we are getting closer to having them done.

    (wattage) Output should be near stock, about 15% over is what its looking like our final model will come out at.



    So ... might even get a few extra watts out of the Electrosport design ... :wink:
  18. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I would like for someone knowing more about this than I do.... To explain how this is not bad for the heat dissipation.... as we clearly have an issue here. I always thought that by lowering the out put... you could minimize the heat expenditure.....
    With now 460 watt being produced.... how does this NOT increase the heat threshold????? On another note..... My mosfet r/r is fused at 30 amps. The mosfet is capable at 55 watts....so no issue there..... what is the stock rated at???? 460/13.81=33.31..... If it's a 30 amp unit.... then there are issues......
  19. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    Thanks Lukas. Going to have to break the piggy bank and order the new factory parts for about $900. I already have 2 gaskets ready for that cover. Flywheel puller is going to be the next thing to look for.
  20. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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    Yes more power = more heat but BMW have been known to spec the alternators at max RPM so you are not normally running with 400w output, The output power vs RPM graph would be needed to see what is really output at normal operational RPM.