Another alternator hits the dust and not under warranty

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by C5!, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    It's a nice thing to use to hold the crank while torqueing the big bolt and using the puller. I made one, but it took two hardware store trips to get the correct size. And a little grinder work.

    I can't find one online, tonite. From the service disc, BMW part # 11 6 570. If this BMW tool costs less at a dealer, than a trip to your hardware store, buy it there.

    I'll post picture of this tool when I take it out of the engine, Tuesday. bobo
  2. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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    CG2005 at f650.com has been making the same thing for the 650 single guys, may be worth checking if it is the same length as the single, I know he was making a new batch recently
  3. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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  4. creola

    creola Been here awhile

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    I would be more than pleased to make a batch of TDC bolts for the F800 crew if the ones I make for the F650 do not work. I need to know the diameter and pitch of the thread and the diameter and length of the tip.

    I charge $15.00, shipping within CONUS included.

    Thanks WayneC1 for the intro.
  5. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I would be in for one...please.....
  6. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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    I just checked and the F650GS TDC bolt part No is 11 6 570 which is the same P/N Bobo1167 specified in a post above as being for the F800
  7. MikeMike

    MikeMike Long timer

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    Size is high strength M8 x 1.25 of 50mm length bolt with snout ground blunt to around 5 mm.
    Page 2.13 in the Haynes manual.

    I like those ones in the bucket. Nice work.:clap
  8. creola

    creola Been here awhile

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    The TDC bolts I make will apparently work for the F800 crew. I have a several on the shelf ready to ship. I you want one PM me your shipping address.

    You may pay the $15.00 with a check, cash or money order. Paypal is also acceptable.

    The $15.00 includes shipping CONUS. An additional shipping fee outside of CONUS will be determined once I check your address with the post office.
  9. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    Once you find all the tools and the green loctite.

    ya gotta clean stuff up, the gasket surface and the tapers on the crankshaft and inside the new rotor. Leave the oil on the bearings inside the freewheel gear

    [​IMG]
    If you haven't yet pull off the freewheel gear. It's not tight and pulls straight off the shaft.

    [​IMG]
    These roller bearings should be oily before installation.

    [​IMG]
    I smeared some oil on the shaft too. Keep the tapered parts clean.

    [​IMG]
    While twisting the one direction it will go, push the freewheel bearing into the new rotor.

    [​IMG]
    I squirted the Loctite 648 around the shaft in the circle like this, and a similar amount inside the rotor taper. It's kinda drippy. You also want to keep it out of the bearings.

    [​IMG]
    The rotor is heavy, use two hand to just barely hang it on the end of the crankshaft, then, stick the thrust washer on the intermediate gear shaft, then shove the rotor on the rest of the way. This is all fiddly wiggly fitting and you can't actually see the mesh of the freewheel and intermediate gears. You should be able to see the end of the crankshaft fitting snuggly into the bore of the rotor.

    Add some Loctite 648 to the threads of the big bolt and screw it into the end of the crankshaft. Tighten to 140NM=103ft/lbs. Mine did not turn very far beyond finger tight, maybe 2 rotations.

    [​IMG]
    Put the cover on. I used some Hondabond liquid gasket on the rubber plug the stator wires ride in, and a little bit to hold the gasket in place. If you can see them the torque pattern is numbered on the picture above. All the screws are the same length, tighten to 12NM. My cover doesn't leak anymore.

    Put all the other stuff back together and go ride.

    bobo
  10. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Thanks Bobo!
    Nice set of pictures!
  11. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    The locking screws mentioned above are beautiful, and given the choice i would have bought that cool looking tool.

    OR, had any BMW shirt wearing guy or gal mentioned the need for this tool to me, I woulda shoulda coulda bought it then..I wonder what it costs from them?

    but since I'm currently a statistic on the unenjoyment roles, I had time to "make" my own. Anyone with about a buck and access to a decent hardware store and a rock, grinder or a file can do this too.

    I didn't bother to find a metric scale for this because I didn't care that much. Get a clue, 25mm=1inch that's close enough for this epistle.
    [​IMG]

    the basic spec is 8mm (diameter) x 1.25mm (that's the pitch of threads) x 50mm long

    A the middle screw is the winner and did the job well. It was only a 35mm screw but had the longest threaded portion of any of the allen headed screws at the store. Because of the long threaded length it works. Per the label on the drawer at the hardware store this is a grade 12 (very strong, stiff). It screwed into the engine almost all the way, almost as far as the plug.

    2 the suggested screw (by the Haynes book, a 50mm grade 8 bolt) has a LARGE head (especially when you have to put a socket on it) and it bangs into the engine case before the pointy end seats securely in the the crankshaft. This bolt has enough length, but didn't seat firmly into the crankshaft (my pointy end grinding may have contributed to the lack of grip). A really desperate guy could grind off the hex head points and cut a big slot for a straight screwdriver and make this work ok*.

    III would have failed also, because the threads aren't long enough and it would bottom out in the case before it seated in the crank. It is also a 50mm long bolt.

    * Remember this is only a locking screw. It is only to be tightened "finger tight", ok maybe with a handheld turning tool. I used a common allen wrench on the 35mm screw.

    This TDC locking tool is also "required" when a valve adjustment is needed, since very few 800 motors have ever desired valve adjustments, the tools are rare.
  12. bxr140

    bxr140 Flame Bait

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    If it helps anyone, +1. The bolt I used when I did my valves was like 100-120mm or something (if I remember correctly...) but as noted above, what really matters is the length of the threaded portion. The bolt I found in my bucket of parts was also tapered enough on the end that I didn't even have to do any grinding! Effective? Check. Quick? Check. Free? Check!

    Shiny new stuff is nice, but ingenuity is far more rewarding. :1drink
  13. jttele

    jttele Been here awhile

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    Just a quick FYI, I had not seen anybody mention this, but the official BMW part # for the TDC locking bolt is: 83300401611 and it retails for $5.18. It's available from any dealer (probably to order), or Max BMW and others I'm sure have it to buy online. Go to Max's catalog and click on service and maint. section, and you'll find it there.
  14. greenthumb

    greenthumb b00b

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    I purchased an infrared temp. gun a while back and took a couple readings of the side covers immediately after a few rides. The stator side cover runs in the 90 - 95°C range while the clutch side typically 60. I was thinking about trying to rig up a crude heat sink to attach to the stator cover to see if it cools things downs a bit. I also noticed that the exhaust pipes run almost directly in front of the the cover, so the hot air coming off them may be actually be contributing to the problem. I know it is just a band aid fix and not addressing the real problem.
    Any ideas?
  15. guzzimike

    guzzimike Long timer

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    I notice that the new assembly (P/N 12 31 8 524 422) is now available on the Max website. Price has gone up $US125.
  16. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    to us poor suckers who have purchased this engine.

    and that replacement stator is in the $150-200 range

    and maybe it survives a little bit better than the oem replacement, maybe 50,ooo miles

    and since the oem replacement is ONLY available with the new rotor, at a cost approaching $931.75 (what i paid with the special shipping and two day delivery (to the BMWMOA rally where they should be prepared to service good customers)).

    It seems to me, the most reasonable investment is a couple of years worth of new aftermarket stators. Especially considering the effort and special tools and loctite goop needed for rotor replacement. The stator only change out is a parking lot easy thing to do.

    I would happily just replace a bunch of stators, for $600, rather than spend $800 once, with no assurance the new rotor is any helpful solution. No mention has been made that a new oem stator is anybetter than what just failed. There is no cooling enhancement beyond a bunch of holes that allow some amount of convection ventilation, inside the sealed cover with only a tiny oil flow.

    Dont's waste any more money at BMW, just replace the failed part and move along. Unless you are under warranty.

    I won't own this bike long enough to ever need another stator. I might buy another bike just like it, and then worrry about those problems as they come along. If a guy had a voltmeter that indicated normal 13.8 volt charging when running and something less when that stator fails, survival is only dependent on the location of the next battery charger or new battery (Walmart carries the correct battery on the shelf). My experience indicates many hours and hundreds of miles (the longest way possible across Oklahoma) with a failed stator and easy access to replacement batteries.

    An anal service guy could easily carry a replacement stator (or have one ready to ship)when on the rtw trip. The rotor weighs a lot 7lb 6oz, the stator 2lb 10oz (though my burnt one may be missing some copper).

    I don't see any benefit to "solving" this problem. It's like a bike that use oil from the gitgo, live with it, a quart or so across an oil change is no reason to rebuild the engine.

    YMMV bobo
  17. Bobo1167

    Bobo1167 On a different frequency

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    That is the correct part number for the stator and rotor combo package.


    I was quoted the LIST price 934.96 when I first asked the parts guy to get me a replacement STATOR. I balked, I told him I'd read on ADV the price was $810. After another phone call he was "able" to offer me the net price of 810. With a right cover gasket, $15.75, and 810, and 40.15 overnight shipping the whole deal was 931.75. Of course he failed to try and sell me the neccesary TDC locking screw.

    Dealers are just that. they are in the business to sell stuff at the highest price the market will bear. That's capitilism, welcome to the US.
  18. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Somewhere back in the earlier pages of this thread or the other one we talked about a heat shied for the exhaust pipe,
    and also a steampunk mad-max approach of cooling the stator thru the cover :evil

    I think it was generally agreed that the heat problem was a result of resistance heating of the stator by the electricity running thru it ( I^2 * R losses ) and not a result of extra heat gain from the pipe. So I think the creative mad-max approach would work. Also a series-style regulator as several folks are succesfully using should extend life.

    I think personally I'll just watch the voltage monitor I installed, and when panic hits ... figure out how to get home and buy an ElectroSport replacement stator they seem to have done their homework and have a modified design that "should be" more durable.

    The stator has 3-phases, so depending on how it fails you could end up with some partial charging output from one or two phases. If you turn off all loads that you can (unscrew headlight bulb (if safe to do so), turn off ABS & any heated gear then you might be able to ride as far as needed. If you loose all 3 phases I think you'll be SOL fairly quickly unless you rig a extra car battery in your top case ... as one ADVRider did ... :lol3

    Just my $0.02
  19. MikeMike

    MikeMike Long timer

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    Be interesting to do an A-B test with 2012 or prior F bike and one of the new F700 or F800's as far as the case temp goes.
    BMW probably doesn't give a damn about this issue, just like they don't care about the fuel pump controllers that have failed.
  20. Ride-a-lot

    Ride-a-lot Been here awhile

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    I believe my bike is in the early stages of the stator crapping out. I have an '09 F650GS with 41K miles. I have always had a volt meter on the bike. Since day one it has consistantly run from 14.1-14.3 volts. I just returned last weekend from a 2000k mile trip, the volts had stayed in the normal range the entire trip.

    This week riding to work the volts have been running in the 13.4-13.9 range. I have never seen this low of volts before. This is in warm weather with no extra electrical loads. At times at speed the volts will go up to 14.1 but as soon as I stop the volts drop down to 13.4 The normal volts at idle has always been 14.1-14.2

    I will keep riding it and watching for any more signs of charging failure. I will also be watching Electrosport for the release of their stator. I don't want to pay BMW's bloated price. Oh bother!