Arizona National Feedback

Discussion in 'Trials' started by LowPSI, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. nwcycle

    nwcycle Long timer

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    Copied from the NATC Rulebook

    2013 AMA/NATC
    SUPPLEMENTAL RIDING RULES
    Rev: 12/4/2012 4:01 PM
    Page 2 of 14
    1. RIDER REQUIREMENTS
    A. Rider Qualifications:
    1. Riders must be 10 years of age or older and of advanc
    ed or expert caliber, riders of lesser skill shall ride
    only the clubman class, novice or beginner riders shall not enter.

    Hmm see where I have a beef with that ?????

    2013 AMA/NATC
    SUPPLEMENTAL RIDING RULES
    Rev: 12/4/2012 4:01 PM
    Page 2 of 14
    1. RIDER REQUIREMENTS


    1. Series championships are open to all classe
    s. See Sections 8 & 9 for requirements.
    2. The Pro Class is the most prestigious class in which to compete
    3. The Expert classes are a transition between the
    Pro Class and the Support Classes. The 125-cc Expert
    Class is open to riders of ability suitable for ri
    ding the Expert line and 10-18-years of age on January 1
    st
    , of
    the current year.
    4. The Expert Sportsman and Women’s Expert Sports
    man classes are designed to be additional transition
    classes. Support class sections are considered too eas
    y for these riders. Without creating any new lines,
    these riders will compete on the hardest of the support se
    ctions and the easiest of the Expert sections as
    determined by the Trialsmaster and Sporting Steward.
    5. The High School Class is an Expert Spor
    tsman Class that is open to any rider 10
    -
    18 years of age on
    January
    1st of the current year.
    6. The Junior Class
    is a support class open to any rider 10-18 years of age on January 1
    st
    of the current
    year.
    7. The Sportsman Class is a support class designed
    to provide a transition for riders between local and
    national competition.
    ( Or in lame-mans term, any one that usually rides a advanced
    OR HIGHER CLASS !!!!! ) I.E. What I stated in the first place !!!!


    #81
  2. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Problem is rules, as you read them *today* were written 13 years apart and fail to express*litterally* what we know to be true. Yes, nationals not open to *all riders* the *amendment*added for clubman doesnt superceed that rule. Support used to be hard intermediate an expert sections. Then came clubman. They made support expert lines, harder not easier like before.

    That is where even I am agreeing with most everything you said except where your *amature* level friends could or should have had any *hope* to even place in a class one higher than they normally would ride, let alone a*national* event that all years passed where freaking hard as hell to even navigate the loop at below expert experience and skills!!! I know you complained to self because Cramsey apears to be expert rider!

    My WHOLE POINT IN THIS DISCUSSION WAS: THAT HE ISNT AN EXPERT RIDER.

    AND THEN If I HAD GONE, AND HAD GOOD DAY, ID BEAT HIM MOST OF EVERY TRIALS WE'VE EVER ENTERED. SO I TRIED TO TELL YOU AND YOUR BUDDYS, THAT THEY PROBABLY CONFUSED WHAT LEVEL RIDERS CLUBMAN WAS SETUP FOR? Asuming nobody from intermediate ability/classes across the usa SHO W S UP, then maybe amatures would win and podium by default.

    THAT is what needs fixed and it has to be fixed at clubs *names* and natc rules, a little of both!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
    #82
  3. Gordy

    Gordy Team Listo

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    :ruskie :kboom


    :rofl
    #83
  4. nwcycle

    nwcycle Long timer

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    Hope someone can explain this to the young Roper boy,
    Someone who actually belonged in that class, and had the stones to move up to the sportsman line, and I am willing to bet, that most of the guys who sandbagged that clubman line have been riding at at least adv/exp level longer than the young boy has been on earth....
    But we can argue this all year and beyond, those who know ..... know what really is going on.....
    Sad............really Sad:deal

    And also, the clubman line did not exist 13 yrs ago.....
    and if anyone can figure to video themselves and post on you tube, well they can simply read rules cant they?
    #84
  5. nwcycle

    nwcycle Long timer

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    :D
    [​IMG]:lol3
    #85
  6. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Our local transplant to Colorado`s club, Chris Hertrich`s son Micah also moved up at the same time. Both fathers are pushing the boys to be the next generation of Pro riders!
    #86
  7. nwcycle

    nwcycle Long timer

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    That young guy will be awesome, I had spoke with Chris several times complimenting what a great job Micah does, and I am more impressed how Micah actually listens to his dad when riding,
    They will be an awesome new group of riders.....
    Thx for bringing that up Line.....
    #87
  8. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    What rule? That is sort of the rub/problem. Sorry nwcycle, in the conversations I have posted I was not using your *name in vain* merely talking point I hope you know that. And sorry I misunderstood when you or not you mentioned class names for club in somewhere. But this *IS* some of the problem I'm speaking up about here, there is a history so to speak, 4 main classes (before pro & CLUBMAN). All for expert or higher difficulty lines, for in usa is only 2 difficulty classes in 99% of the clubs. Then added the new next lower class (clubman) which is **in your own words/definition is advanced**, aka afternoon or **upper class**.

    I can't iterate enough that the merit of your complaint ^on paper^ is valid as hell, only to where I've at least tried to make you see he could call the class he rode at home club *professional* (since natc has no guidlines nor standards we adhere to) yet 134 riders in the immediate area know his *professional* class is at intermediate section difficulty! !!

    Again. My point is 2 sided. I rode support-age (lowest class befor CM) againt *expert* where some clubs exper is higher than *master* a whole class up on difficulty scale?

    Is this so hard for everyone to see? It seems easy. I don't ever see college teams competing in the superbowl; do you? Should we? If it was ran like this maybe minneapolis high school team should enter the *SUPER BOWL* playoffs, and dare hope they had a chance to win it all? 2 things though, prety unfair competition, and unrealistic expectations if high school coach got fired when they got beat in game 1 every friggin year, don't ya think?

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
    #88
  9. rokhopr

    rokhopr 2015 Beta 250 Factory

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    I'm smart enough to know what I'm able to do and not do safely. One back surgery is all I ever want to have. My one foray into support class 2 years ago resulted in several trips over the bars, a DNF, a tweaked back, a DNS, punching out of probably 2 sections per loop - not the best of times so I'm not real in a real big hurry to go there again. At 55 and pretty beat up my risk \ reward matrix is pretty narrow.

    Point is I rode support, it didn't work out so I stepped back and was glad to be riding in the shadows of the future stars of the sport. After a couple of events they elected to move on so somehow I'm left as the bad guy in this deal???

    Duluth Saturday was very close and could have easily gone to any of the top 3 riders and we were all beat by a guy on a 30 year old twin shock. The guy in third had a fluke 5 on section 1, if not for that he would have won.

    At the end of the day I'm an intermediate level rider, sometimes a good one, sometimes not so good. I'll be applauding your success when you pass me up. (whoever you are - you seem to think you know me, I have no idea who you are)

    You might be interested in my next video - I'm working on a real time scoring system for trials events using electronic scoring chips and cell phones. It's kind of cool stuff. Stay tuned. I'll even add a sand bagger alert that will route to your cell phone so you can stone the rider in real time as they go by.

    Anyway I got go - I'm done with this thread.
    #89
  10. lamotovita

    lamotovita Ageing Adventurer

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    Thats innovative.
    It brings to mind one of my pet peeves, several clubs that I've encountered charge a higher entry fee to a visiting rider from another club than they do their club members.
    Think about that, do you really want to discourage riders from traveling greater distances, and incurring the expenses of that travel, to come ride your Trial?
    If your events are so well attended that you need to limit entries it makes some sense. But even then it's nice for your riders to have some different competitors in their classes for a change.
    Of course the entry fee is a drop in the bucket compared to the travel expenses involved, but another $10.00 entry fee after spending $200.00 or more, just on fuel, adds insult to injury and makes visiting riders feel less than welcome.
    From a strictly economic point of view, is it better to charge a visiting rider your regular entry fee, or less, or get nothing by discouraging that rider to the point that they don't come to your event at all?
    I apologize for going off topic here but it's a rather old and diluted thread at this point, no less important though.
    #90
  11. nwcycle

    nwcycle Long timer

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    Anyway I got go - I'm done with this thread.[/QUOTE]

    Guess he wont show anymore, just like his podium appearances....( Or lack thereof ) :lol3
    #91
  12. dhubbard422

    dhubbard422 Adventurer

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    And to think that this thread started off by asking - where are the Nat'l riders? This might have been an interesting topic. As a former Nat'l (event) organizer, pro level minder and support rider, I have been surprised by the attendance levels at recent Nat'ls.

    The pics of the terrain at the AZ Nat'l look amazing and appear to be much prettier than the AZ National I rode a few years ago near the petrified forest. It's unfortunate that more were not able to participate in this event.

    Personally, I stopped riding Nat'ls, in large part, because the Support class presented too much risk for my skill and age.

    Regarding the digression that this thread took... the top National classes do not necessarily correspond to local classes. Most local clubs would consider themselves lucky to have a single Nat'l Pro or Nat'l Expert level rider and to build a line for Pro would be to build a line for one rider. The Nat'ls are the opportunity for those top riders to compete against others with similar skills - something that they can not usually do at the Local level.

    Expert is a class for "old" Pros that want to step down or for future Pros that are not quite ready to step up to Pro. All of the other classes are basically there to allow the National event to succeed on a financial level, i.e. it's financially challenging to host an event for a few (1-2 dozen) Pro and Expert level riders. I believe that the addition of the Clubman class was, in part, to help shore up flagging attendance and maintain revenue...

    it is sad that this thread became a vehicle for personal attacks. The personal attacks are not helpful in the least and they are, IMO, very misplaced and completely inappropriate. Please stop.
    #92
  13. broncobowsher

    broncobowsher Long timer

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    how about another photo to put this back on track:1drink
    [​IMG]
    #93
  14. dhubbard422

    dhubbard422 Adventurer

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    Amazing terrain. BIG obstacles. Looks like fun, well the smaller stuff does...:rofl

    FWIW, from my quick research, i.e. glancing at the Nat'l results from time-to-time, attendance was down at pretty much all of the Nat'l events in 2013. We see that trend, to a lesser degree, at local events too. I hope that is a trend that reverses direction.
    #94
  15. NMTrailboss

    NMTrailboss Team Dead End

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    :thumb

    Sick!! Nice pic! :clap
    #95
  16. laser17

    laser17 Long timer

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    Great Pic Bronco. :clap
    #96
  17. nwcycle

    nwcycle Long timer

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    Well it doesnt help that they jack entry fees up and almost seems like they want to discourage minders with a 100.00 late fee sign ups.
    Lets face it, Trials is not a spectator friendly sport,
    In the past, i dont really remember even a spectator fee. now every venue had a $10.00 per person tag,
    you this might not be a big deal to some, but when some are spending gas fuel, lodging, bike main cost, on top of a $80 X 6 events X 2 Riders, thats almost a $1K alone in sign up fees...
    With a lot of the special events in the past I have raced or rode, they at least throw you a T shirt at the event..
    But I do also know that those funds help the local club, and I think the TDN Team, so I truly hope it is being used for the cause..
    As far as more attendance, maybe we should do the stadium style trials thats popular in Europe??
    #97
  18. dhubbard422

    dhubbard422 Adventurer

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    Yes. Minders, except for the Pros, are in my experience, generally discouraged. There have been many issues with too many minders in sections and on the loop. Lower class riders shouldn't need minders. Lower class riders should develop their skills locally and practice on obstacles that will be harder than those they expect to ride at a Nat'l. They shouldn't need a minder to feel safe while riding a Nat'l.

    Entry fees for Nat'ls have been significantly reduced in recent years. Given the attendance level at this year's Nat'ls, I expect that the host clubs are barely breaking even. If they weren't closely watching their expenses, it would be possible to lose money.

    Stadium style events - been there. Minded for a rider at the 2nd event at the Cow Palace in SF. I enjoyed the experience. However, my understanding is that all of these stadium events in the US have been significant money losers. Those who have promoted these events, most likely with the expectation that they are taking significance risks with their money, have my admiration. However, I do not recommend hosting one here in the USA unless you are simply willing to toss $$$ away in the effort to promote the sport.

    Trials has to be one of the most inexpensive motorsports on the planet, if not the most inexpensive. Tires are cheap. The vehicle is cheap and competitive in stock form. At the peak of my trials riding experience, I went through 4 sets of trials tires in a season - maybe, $800 - $1,000. I can spend that on one set of tires for autocross; if I was competing Nationally in Autocross, I'd need a fresh set for every weekend... National level karting would eat up that much $ or more in tires in a weekend or two at most and the rebuild frequency would shock you.

    Spectating at a Nat'l Trials is also cheap. I spent $60 just to park at the MotoGP in Austin this past April and that doesn't even include the pair of grandstand seats for 3 days... I think the total for my wife and I was about $400 for the weekend.

    Please remember that trials riders can't always continually improve. As one starts riding, with significant practice most can see improvement. However, that improvement can not be sustained over many years. As one gets older, perception of risk may change as well. Please consider that it's important to find places for those riders that are moving down to ride less challenging lines, else they have to disappear from the sport. Personally, I'd rather have "Sandbaggers" showing the newbies how it's supposed to be done as opposed to running off those that have invested years of passion in the sport.

    Sorry to be so negative, but I've heard the same complaints over and over and I've only been riding trials for about 20 years. These complaints are often from riders that are just getting started in the sport. Trials events require volunteers. Be involved. Volunteer. Promote events. See how easy or hard it is to make a difference.
    #98
  19. laser17

    laser17 Long timer

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    126 trophies per weekend gets expensive! Im guessing, that the pre-registration monetary incentives may be an attempt to help clubs from buying unneeded supplies and trophies. I agree, The late signup fee is pretty stiff and the newbie usually finds out about it too late. Maybe something else should be tried.

    My personal opinion is that there are too many trophies in trials. I think the pro's /experts probably have enough and would prefer money (I know AIReS was a huge help this year) . I would only give trophies to the kids. Maybe if the NATC would make up inexpensive medallions and sell them to the clubs at cost and as needed for each event it would help reduce cost and waste. The overall championship/end of year "plaque" would be the main award. It could even display the individual medallions the top three had earned over the course of the year. . I know this wouldn't solve attendance problems, but maybe you could have more local clubs step up for "regional" nationals if they knew they wouldn't loose money.
    The East/Midwest and West regional overall idea that Lineaway was suggesting seems like a good idea in conjunction with the lower cost model.
    #99
  20. dhubbard422

    dhubbard422 Adventurer

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    Clubs buy trophies based on the number of pre-entries; this is why, in part, there is a penalty for late registration.

    Looking at the results from the past year, it'd be difficult to recommend ordering trophies for 3 places in each class... This hasn't always been the case. When I last rode the Support line, which was only a handful of years ago, my age class usually had about a dozen riders. A top three finish was significant and deserved a trophy. However, in 2013 I do not believe that any Support class has averaged more than a handful of riders and most have had difficulty filling the podium. This is a troubling trend and it does not bode well for a financially viable series.