Arizona National Feedback

Discussion in 'Trials' started by LowPSI, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. laser17

    laser17 Long timer

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    I know 2 riders who didn't ride because they didn't want to pay the added late fee's here in the northeast. Not a big deal, but part of the story. I agree with you, there should be x number of riders per trophy. Either increase X or decrease the cost of trophies or both. I suggest both and keep the nice year-end award.
  2. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Probably the best information I have read, even if is still doesn't address the fact of "the rest of us" down in the "flights" aka Skill levels, where riders should be expecting, and all that... Again, I said the top 2 tiers take care of themselves, the NATC took the easy/at the time obvious, way out long ago. I assume they just thought and was assuming there would be 100's of competitors chomping at the bit for a "class for them." and would toss money into the jar... it did for a while, there are a HELLUVA lot more people that think EXACTLY like NWCYCLE, so like I tried to say, I was not attacking him, EVER. or anything, my goal was to give information that might otherwise leave people dissapointed and all that.

    so, here we are. For the lower classes, which IMHO unless the whole "nationals" is SUDDENLY "sponsored by Toyota" last I heard it was NOT... then there HAS to be, some more thought put into the lower classes & competiton structure as a whole. Stupid as not realizing where your target audience is. The lower riders that attend NOW, is the the "bread and butter" for the hosting clubs. This is what will keep the PRO's a place to compets and all that, IMHO. SInce it is Where most of the riders, across the USA are riding in their clubs. These are the guys, that have the money, and ability to attend a trials that isn't in their backyard, let alone a nationals. Lots has change economy wise and family dynamics wise let alone competition wise, for modern trials.

    Competition drives 96% of the sport of trials, I believe, even everyone that is NOT a pro. in fact I think every class up to PRO is even more driven, in the fact that we dont get paid a dime, we pay for everything we do, not that the TOP riders shouldn't!!!! But I mean this in a way, for example... I'm 120 miles from my club, I could ride the backyard (and do) every night I want to, but I choose to goto the club events to test myself against the riders I beat or get beat by each month.

    I think, at some point, the same has to be said for the nationals. now sure, "technically" since it is "me" against the "trials master" technically... It is, but what I am saying is different. There is still more to it. I reiterate, I will not spend $1000 to enter an event where the outcome is obvious to me, where I myself will be competing against Dustin Land, Marc Carpenter, and those top riders from my area. IF I wanted to enter the MASTER CLASS at my club, even if the masters would RIDE MY SECTIONS (intermediate) the outcome is ordained, if they even show up (or hell ordained if they DON'T show up). Now if I ride against Mike Cramsey, and those guys I usually ride with, the outcome is more than flip of the coin, nor Ordained.

    That is the "forgot" about part of the nationals, because the comitee or whomever was more about the PRO-Expert-what have you, with us "also rans" only asked to show up, to "sponser" the costs of putting this whole thing on. But they also know it won't survive without the rest of us going, or top paid sponsor-ships, whish drives up even local trials costs, due to COSTS. Goodyear sells tires at DOUBLE the cost of cheaper barnds, becuase of all the crap they sponsor supposedly sells more tires, I beg you if goodyear dropped the price of the tires by half, I'd but a set all the time. This is the economy nowdays. now Redbull? that is the opposite, they sponsor everything because they have figured out that since $.05 cents of water and sugar and crap in a can, sold for 3 bucks, they can buy anything they want to, and they do, because our kids will buy it by the case, lol...

    ANYWAY, I think "TRIALS" and everyone has reached the crossroads, if you want me to sponsor it, meaning you want a big customer market, maybe you better cater to us MORE than we do now... Or figure out how to get REDBULL to pay... So it is going to have to be fixed, I couldn't agree more with the top 2 or 3 classes and how you explained them Rhubbard, makes perfect sense.

    But even with my 55 year old brother that ride MOTOCROSS as much or more than I do trials, knows that if he's racing, and enters the class that he's supposed to, that the riders in the race he's in are at least "close" to his skills and talents, and hell age. Those guys pay entries, passes, et al, that also brings the money to put on these events, and yeah someone makes money because it brings in "fans" which trials has a long way to get there yet.

    I haven't figured out exactly what or how this would be done differently than what we do as "regionals", where 6 clubs get together and each one, puts on events that the WHOLE CLUB participates, is just about a normal event in every way, except more people show up, we give everyone a free dinner Sat night, and we sell t-shirts BTW. Our club sets up a trials about as good as a nationals most years, except we don't really have to worry about 2 lines, PRO & EXPERT in "nationals" speak difficulty at least. BUT, Those could easily be added, and are for a nationals, why not just have a regular club meet more or less, but with afternoon classes only maybe, due to time and judges.

    I have dabbled with the idea, of like natc seems to like to have the "kids nationals" separately, what about a "morning class class with kids all the way up through-sr amature event?" held by clubs that might not have the grounds for a PRO line...

    I could host one of those, except I've seen some of the teenage kids nowdays ride harder lines than I can make at my place (master or above).

    all the above again, is "thinking outloud" I could start a new thread but might if others have more input here. DONT BE SHY, but be like DHUBBARD, lets not attack each other.

    I'm not attacking the NATC in any of my posts, BTW, I am merely trying to point out, that there are things that IMHO might help attendance, even in "lean years" and all that, maybe we can speak our mind here, and get it up the chain of command at some point?
  3. nwcycle

    nwcycle Long timer

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    Well looks like there a be a total of 6 Venues next year.... 12 days
    So anyone who wants to go, they are now looking at another weekend for that best of 7 now
    Caaaa Ching !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ear
  4. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    You were talking about already established Nationals, right? not anything I said? just checking.
  5. dhubbard422

    dhubbard422 Adventurer

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    Wow... I've never heard that the NATC has any idea of who will really host a Nat'l until the annual meeting is actually underway. Even then (and I have attended this meeting a couple of times) I've heard it referred to as "Liar's Poker"... i.e. the "chairman" asks each club rep: "last year you said your club would (or might) host, so how is this year looking?"

    Maybe the leadership is changing, or has changed, how the process works. I haven't attended in several years as I have a conflict with a charity trials that I host on the same weekend. However, when I have attended, clubs that want to host a Nat'l show up at the meeting and offer to host (or mumble something about maybe next year). It can be pretty random who shows up and wants to host an event for the coming season. The annual meeting is still almost 2 months away.

    6 clubs willing to host would be a positive step IMO. Only a few years ago it was tough to find 3 or 4 that were willing to host and it wasn't always easy or possible to make the schedules work for those that were willing.
  6. dhubbard422

    dhubbard422 Adventurer

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    I don't know... Maybe it could work. Maybe not. IMO, one of the problems with the Clubman line is that it can be really challenging to find meaningful obstacles for the Clubman level rider in the same sections that offer tasty obstacles for the Pro level riders. Sometimes there are Pro only or Pro/Expert only sections just because the club hasn't been able to find enough sections that offer challenges for all lines (this was true even before the Clubman line was added). Unfortunately, this just adds to the effort required by the club in terms of effort to set the sections and finding enough judges for the additional sections (I've also learned that most folks do not enjoy observing a Pro only section as there is so much time waiting and so little observing). As someone who has had the task of recruiting judges for a Nat'l, I would be somewhat cautious about adding too many Pro/Expert only sections (it can be hard to find sufficient volunteers without adding any addition sections to the mix).

    Consider the format used by the El Trials de Espana. It is an event for all classes. The Pros usually zero the regular event... and then the Pros ride 3 Pro only sections after the regular event is done. This is a great event - one that I'd like to ride again someday - but a Nat'l trials is a full day of sections geared for the Pro rider and it is a very different type of event.

    Some years, the Sooner Cup has emulated the El Trial with a Pro ride off and it'd be great if more clubs offered these kind of events, but they are different from a Nat'l (or at least any Nat'l that I've ridden).

    When the Nat'ls started (late '70s?), I believe that there were only two lines. As trials skills advanced, the difference in obstacle difficulty between the accomplished club-level rider and that of the Pro dramatically increased and additional lines have been added to fill the gap in skill. However, just as it is hard (but not impossible) to set a single section that is satisfying to both the morning and the afternoon club-level rider, it is similarly difficult to set a section that provides a good challenge for the lower class afternoon rider (i.e. a rider that is just starting to learn the advanced techniques) and the Pro.

    The great differences in skill may dictate different events. Maybe.
  7. flo10

    flo10 Adventurer

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    So here's a thought. For the Clubman class instead of giving out trophies for first, second, third, etc., give out gold, silver, and bronze medals for how well you do against the "Trials Master"--not how well you do against the other riders. Gold medal for not scoring more than a single dab in any or all sections (no 2s, 3s or 5s on score card). Silver medal for not scoring more than two dabs in any or all sections (no 3s or 5s on score card). And Bronze medal for not scoring more than three dabs in any or all sections (no 5s on score card). And then there could be special end of year awards for achieving all gold, silver or bronze awards in the individual events.
    Of course sections would have to be set up appropriately to make it possible to achieve these scores. And the Trials Master should have the authority to throw out any sections that proved too difficult and made it impossible for any rider to receive a medal. Just a thought.