Ask Woody About Your Wheels

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by woody's wheel works, Jun 17, 2006.

  1. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    FYI....this problem is really only a PROBLEM on wheels that have hubs using nails,,ie straight spokes,,,these hubs in essence determine the indexing/sequencing of the holes drilled in your rim,,,

    there are two basic patterns used today #1 is what we call the jap ,,,#2 is the european pattern,,,when you lay the wheel on a table ,,,look at the upper row of spokes closest to you,,,you will notice an inverted V which i call the tepee,,,,when you look in the tepee you'll see a spoke on the lower dimples pointing either left or right,,,,if it points left= jap pattern/indexing,,,

    BWOE,, This picture is of the KTM 450 EXC front wheel.
    The four 'Blue' spokes make up the sides of the two 'Tepees'. Within each of the 'Tepees' is a spoke heading to the LEFT. This gives me a "Jap" pattern index for the front wheel of my 450 EXC.
    [​IMG] and

    when it points toward the right you have the euro drill pattern,,,,
    BWOE,, The following picture is of the KTM 640 Adventure front wheel.
    The four 'Blue' spokes make up the sides of the two 'Tepees'. Within each of the 'Tepees' is a spoke heading to the RIGHT. This gives me a "Euro" pattern index for the front wheel of my 640 Adventure.
    [​IMG]

    OK,,,now we can tell what rim indexing you have:thumb

    Rx...if you have the wrong indexed rim,,,you have several choices,,,

    1=get the correct rim for your hub

    2= add or subtract one cross on one side...adding a cross requires longer spokes and vice versa for subtracting a cross.... both of these will require redrilling and contersinking the holes on that side of the rim accordingly,,in your case i would add a cross and i would do that on the disc side of the rim,,it will actually increase the strength:thumb

    3=have someone like me or Buchananas redrill and figure out the lengths,,and provide the correct lenth spokes ,,,although i'm sure you have that ability sounds like,,,i've done half adozen in the past year for our ADV riders in this pickle..DO NOT con yourself into just getting the right spokes without correcting the hole angles and countersinking,,,this would lead to premature wheel failure,,,cuz the spokes tend to loosen/break where they bend at the nipple,,,:cry

    4=if we do the wheels we sometimes trade out for the right rim plus the $20 cost of the redrill/countersinking operation and whatever disparity in rim value

    5=for the folks that have traditional flanged hubs,,the Rx is real easy...just flip the spokes on one side of the hub in the opposite direction,,,,Voila the spokes will go the proper dimple hole:super

    :thumb bonus tip: while you are looking at all this i'll clue you in on the optimal location for drilling valve stem and rim-lock holes,,,when you look straight down you'll notice next to the ''teepee" is a "V''/valley,,,your valve stem and rim-lock holes should be in the 'V' /valley for easier access,,,like in the picture below,,,

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    BWOE,,traditionally we drill the valve stem hole opposite the point where the rim is welded together,,,under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you want to drill the hole in the welded area,,,this spot has enough problems trying to stay stuck together,,tis the weakest spot on a rim!!!!

    the extra hole for a rim-lock is usually located in the valley next to the valve stem valley,, because it makes taking the tire on n off a snap,,,

    HINT ya start spooning off the tire to the left n right of the rim lock,,,putting the tire back on start opposite of the rim-lock/valve stem,,,

    FYI,,,some folks drill the rim-lock hole as close to opposite of the valve stem as pictured above,,their rational is of counteracting the weight of the valve stem

    Should you need a second rim rock ,,,this hole is usually located in the valley directly across from the first rim-lock hole/valley,,,this helps balance ie counter balance the weight of the first rim-lock,,,,
    hope this helps ya..:beerwoody

    PS,,,15 Jan'08,,,i just used all of JaBo1's pics and hard work and integrated it into my up-graded explanations,,,what team-work:thumb
  2. JayBo1

    JayBo1 Long timer

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    Thanks for the extensive reply Woody.:clap
    So, if I have understood it correctly, it seems my 640 Adventure has Euro pattern while the 450 EXC (and notably my new rim that was bought for the 640) has Jap pattern. I might add some photo's to this thread with circles around the "V" and the "Tepee" as I have understood them and to show what I have understood of the "spoke on the lower dimple" that faces left on the 450 and right on the 640.

    [​IMG][/IMG]
    This photo is from the 640 and the same "spoke on lower dimple" on the 450 faces left. Does this sound correct?

    Of the proposed solutions you have presented, I think the best would be "1=get the correct rim for your hub." To do this I could either send the rim back and ask for the correct replacement (means finding suitable packaging, arranging courier, etc) or order a matching rim (18"x2.5" black with yellow "double flag" text) for the 450 and order a correct rim for the 640 (21"x1.6" black with yellow "double flag" text). If you are interested in providing a quote for the two rims including USPS to Perth Australia, please PM me.
    Cheers again
    JayBo
  3. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    :thumbattaboy,,,you got the teepee right,,,,, however the 'V' is formed by the spokes to the left and right of the valve stem when viewed like described in next sentence!!!!and thanks for the illustration,,that's beyond my wizardry:wink:,,,OBTW,,,that would be a great idea please take the next pics on a table and orient the photo so that the valve stem 'V' and 'Teepee' are at bottom of pic,,it would be easier to see,,,then we'll put he pics with my previous explanation post

    NOTE: JaBo1 and i corrected all this ,,and the final product is in Post#625:thumb

    ok ,,,i see where you are coming from,regarding the distance issue,,,i can accomodate you on that,,i assume you want standard holes to recycle your spokes or would you like me to set you up with the trick superlace set-up,,beefier ss spkes n nipples and the better lace pattern,ie ax3 versus the oem x2,,,????

    FYI,,,lacing and truing is the easy part,,,prepping and picking the best components is what superlacing is all about,,essentially the:wink:,,,,in essence i'd send you the prepped rims with the optimal spokes n nipples:thumb

    when you decide which way to go holler,,,,,:eek1i just realized you are doing all this work on a big 4stroke,,,is the 450 also a 4stroke???,,:uhohi can't remember,,,reason i'm saying this is that if you are into building strong /durable /hasselfree wheels then you shuld do a serious double look at upgrading your rear hubs to cush drive,,,probably the best long term money saving investment you can make on any current 450cc and above 4-stroke rear wheel,,,,we are replacing blown hubs on every 4-stroke manufacturers rear wheels,,,the hubs that worked great for 2 stroke power delivery,,simply can't hack the powerul punch a 4 stroke delivers,,,i have the solution for that too,,,it's called cush drive hubs,,,in your case the oem lc-4 supermoto hub and cush drive assembly will fit/work for both bikes circa $380:thumb and there are now trick billet hubs and sprocket carriers in a variety of colors circa $499 we have both in stock,,sorta like these.. that i designed/speced in a collaboration with RAD Mfg


    [​IMG]

    later,:super,,woody

    PS,,i want re-iterate my thanks for moving these questions to this thread,,because now everyone gets achance to be in on these problems/solutions,,and it save sme a bunch of time saying the same thin gover n over again!!!
  4. JayBo1

    JayBo1 Long timer

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    Edit done:deal :clap :freaky
  5. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    if one picture is 'worth a thousand words' your homework is worth a million!!
    ATTABOYs to ya:super:beer

    :thumbwoody
  6. beemer67

    beemer67 Really Old airhead

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    Hi Woody,

    A query.

    I need to replace a rear rim on my 1981 BMW R80G/S. I will be switching from the original 2.15 x 18 (my bike was an early 1981) to the later specification 2.50 x 18.

    After a larger spring upgrade on my Works rear shock, I am getting tire rub when using the more aggressive off-road tires.

    My question. Can I lace on a new rim with say a 1/8" offset away from the shock without causing handling problems? Is there a maximum offset before a problem?

    And while I am asking a question, do you sell a thicker spoke than the BMW 4mm, that would still work in hub and rim?
    Cheers,
    Chris
  7. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    :thumbwhen we Superlace these wheels we go with ss 8g spokes and bigger nipples,,,,damn near bullet-proof:super

    guaranteed,,,woody
  8. oprahrider

    oprahrider Pissed Off Primates Racin

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    I'm thinking about selling my 2nd set of wheels off my 2004 DR650. I really don't need them and they would make some nice motard wheels for a hardcore knee dragging kind of rider .
    My 50 year old knees barely drag my ass out of bed :lol3

    The rear is stamped RK Excel J17 M/C X MT350 DOT 407 Japan 804
    with a 140-80-17 Karoo (very tight fit) Stock DR650 hub

    The front is stamped J19 M/C X MT250 402 Japan 304
    with a 110-80-19 Karoo. Stock DR650 hub

    WHAT DIFFERENT MAKES AND MODELS OF MOTORCYCLES WILL THESE WHEELS BOLT UP TOO?, AND WHATS A FAIR PRICE TO SELL THEM FOR WITHOUT ROTORS OR CUSH HUB/SPROCKET ?

    Thanks for your expertise in these matters.

    Bill "Oprahrider" Handrahan
  9. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    i imagine you should have circa $1100-1200 in your SM set-up,,,$800 sounds fair:thumb,,,sorry they 'll only work on another DR-650:cry:cry:cry
  10. toolfan

    toolfan Broken Hearted

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    Woody -

    My girlfriend has a KLR Tengai, which I'm supposed to pretty up this winter. It has rusty spokes, and I was thinking it might look better if I replaced the rims with something black and painted the frame black.

    I've never really messed around with a motorcycle wheel, but I've built/trued mtn bike wheels before.

    Could you sell me a wheel building "kit" (spokes, nipples and rims), and if so,
    what would the price comparo be, as opposed to sending you the hubs:

    Thanks in advance.
  11. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    hi,,,yes we can sell you a kit,,,,the best rims n spokes will run you circa $500 whether they are stock replacements or the custom trick ones that we have custom made for the Superlace,,,,, here's the explanation of what the superlace entails:
    http://www.woodyswheelworks.com/superlace.shtml

    FYI,,,this is the per wheel price structure for lace n truing services,,,so that you all get a better idea ,,,,

    standard lace n true...oem stock spokes to stock hub to stock rim ....$70

    custom lace n true...any aftermarket rim ,spoke,hub using stock lace
    pattern.......................................................$80

    Std superlace n true.. upgraded optimal lace pattern and components..$90

    SUPERSIZED Superlace,,,extra big spokes n nipples for the gnarliest.....$99

    all superlaces come with a one year warranty that your wheels won't come apart:thumb

    in your case a customlace n true or std superlace would do the trick,,,,we prefer you send us your old wheel assembled so that we can see/measure the offsets etc,,OBTW,,is a Tengai the same as the KLR 650????
  12. toolfan

    toolfan Broken Hearted

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    I believe the wheels are the same.

    So, I'm looking at 5 bills plus shipping one way to DIY,
    or about 6 bills and shipping 2 ways for you to do the labor for me?

    Add in the cost of tools - spoke wrench, something to measure true?
    Hmmm... need a little more thought.
    Thanks
  13. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    the price per wheel custom L&T=$80x2= $160

    Superlaced L&T/wheel=$90 x 2=$180

    FYI,,,i did some quick checking on the numbers,,,because their is such a disparity in rim size,color and brand availability and the prices charged we often have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get ya what ya want,,,,so i came up with actual numbers ranging from$474 to $567 depending....
  14. Santo

    Santo Adventurer

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    Hi Woody,
    A friend of mine has a 21x1.85 excel rim that he says will fit any KTM dirtbike. Do you know if this kind of rim can be laced up to the front hub on my 2004 KTM 950adventure? Thanks for the feedback!!!
    Juan
  15. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    well it may fit any KTM dirt bike if it is indexed the same way the dirt bike hubs are indexed,,,,HOWEVER,,the ktm LC-4 after '05 and all LC-8 adventures all share the same front end..wheels n brakes,,,these wheel/rims/hubs use a 'euro' indexed lace pattern,,,incompatible with the majority of ktm dirtbikes which use 'jap' indexing,,,

    PLEASE,,,check post #625 to get a better idea of what/how to deal with this,,,as well as checkin an dhow to check if what you have will work or not,,

    good news!!!! we can make it work with som eof thtricks we hav eup our sleeves,,,:wink:
  16. Savoir-Faire

    Savoir-Faire Powered by Hate

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    Hi Woody!

    I spoke with you some time back on the phone, but I just need to double check.

    I have a 1998 Triumph Thunderbird Sport. It has 17" spoked wheels made from Aluminum (at least, that's my understanding). They're a little corroded, but nothing crazy. On the front, one spoke is broken.

    How much money to relace the front and get it sealed for use with tubeless tires, and to have the rear tested/trued and sealed for tubeless? I don't need anything fancy; I'm a student on a budget. I'm curious to know how much refinishing the rim/hub would be one both wheels as well (just to make it pretty again).

    I'd need the wheels back around March 15th, and would send them to you before February 1st. Is this possible?

    Thanks for your time!

    --Savoir-Faire
  17. Savoir-Faire

    Savoir-Faire Powered by Hate

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    Durrr, just read the pricing abouve on lacing. Does that include all new spokes?

    Sorry for the screw up.
  18. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    :uhohwhen we quote lacing and truing we are talking about the LABOR ie:the two steps involved in building your wheel,,,Parts is a seperate issue

    1st lacing..the art of stringing the spokes through the hub and rim and installing the nipples,,,usually somehere between $20-40 dollars depending on difficulty..'tis the easier of the two steps

    2nd truing... the art of locating/centering the rim on the hub and then tightening all the spokes evenly to their optimal torque value,,,this seperates the men from the wannabees:wink:,,,many can get the wheel sorta round and in the right location,,,,but doing that AND having all the spokes do the same amount of work is another thing:thumb

    FYI... there are some lace jobs that are relatively easy to lace and the truing of which are exceedingly difficult ,,BWOE BMW/Caponord/Moto-Guzzi x-laced tubeless wheels,,hence lacing is just $20-30 and truing is $130-170

    and then you have complex lacing with your 60/80/100/120 spoke wheels were it's all just amatter of time,,,in the mc industry all these prices are based on 32/36/40 spoke wheel assy,,,beyond that you factor in how many extra spokes there are and multiply that by the base price,,,ie an 80 spoke wheel double the base price and so on

    FYI,,,additional functions like polishing/beadblasting/painting/anodizing/powdercoating/cleaning/chroming are additional processes that tack on $$$ depending on what and to what we are doing it to
  19. dssamuels

    dssamuels n00b

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    I would like to purchase a wheelset for the GS that I can use offroad. Can you give me the price with the wheels all built, including rotors, etc. I am probably looking at a 21 inch wheel for the front.

    Thanks,

    Dave Samuels
  20. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    hi dave ,,,

    there's now three basic ways we can go about that...

    OPTION 1a,, if you aren't going to race/and wig out in the dirt,,this option is based on oem hubs using oem rims,,,x-laced,,,tubeless,,,very strong,,,and more expensive,,,i start with new/slightly used 1200GS oem hubs,,,use the the latest ss spokes from HP-2 21 front to a 1.85 x21'' R100GS/PD or HP-2 rim for the front and on the rear we can use the stock 4.00 x17 1200 GS wheel assy if you are carrying loads,,,or the 2.50x18 front rim off the cruiser if you want more dirt bike knobbies circa $2400-2800 depending on what we use

    OPTION 1b,,,for more serious version of the same thing we Superlace the wheel using much beefier 8g ss spokes n nipples....add $120

    OPTION 2a,,,starting with oem hubs we can superlace your wheels to the same basic rim sizes above however we use my Monzter spoke kits,,,and then lace them to a variety of standard aftermarket rims the sizes/colors of your choice,,,the beauty of this arrangement is that the lacing and truing can be done by any competent wheelsmith,,the rear rims with safety beads could also be made tubeless,,circa $2200-2600

    OPTION 2b,,,the rear rims with safety beads could also be made tubeless,,a nifty add-on when you go into thorn and nail infested regions,,,simply plug the tire ,,re-inflate and continue,,,i cannot tell you how many adventure riders have bemoaned the fact that thier rear wheels weren't tubeless and their riding days were ruined having to stop and R&R wheels /tirestubes,,install patches etc etc...visualize being in a group,,and every few miles someone else gets a flat,,,they damn near went insane from i wa stold:cry,,,add $99/wheel

    OPTION 3a,,,there's the new SUPERLITE/Superlaced wheels i just designed and put on the market last month,,,5lbs lighter on front 3lbs lighter on back...essentially a trick version of 2a using my new Superlie hubs,,they look like this...again we listen to what ya wanna do out there and put the optimal rim/spoke tire combs that work for your needs,,,these utilize several versions of rooers to match needs of bike and your pocketbook,,,essentially we designed these hubs to utilize oem and aftermarket ktm 950 rotors,,,all these are turn key no modification wheelsets,,,circa $2400+/-200

    OPTION 3b same as 2b,,, atubeless version of 3a
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288592

    NOTE..FYI,,i say circa alot because hardly anyone gets the same deal/set-up,,,it varies on what color if any,,,new and how used components,,,who my suppliers are,,,and what set-ups we go with...PLEASE bear with me on this because we are a very specialized catering to YOUR specific needs kind of place