Ask your WELDING questions here.

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by KTM640Dakar, Mar 5, 2007.

  1. P B G

    P B G Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    10,001
    Location:
    Greater Chicago
    Works for me.

    As I mentioned before I'm doing this wrong for my dryer as we speak.

    I have my welding outlet as a box directly connected to my main breaker panel, I have a jumper hooked up to run my dryer off my welding outlet.

    Only the way my welding outlet is wired there is a heavy insulated wire from the ground terminal to the ground block.

    So I am directly grounding my neutral into my ground, if this outlet were on the other side of the shop this would be a big no no as I would be sending current through exposed ground path. But it all happens in the Box so it works safely.

    In reality the welder's ground clamp has a terminal on the welder, from that terminal there is a path to the ground outlet on your wall. Make sure that lug has a path to ground, and just ignore the neutral terminal on the outlet. Shit find any metal junction box in your welding area, attach a jumper cable lead to that and ground your welder.
  2. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,887
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    Yea that's what I was thinking only the other way round. Run the welder receptacle off the dryer receptacle.

    Put the welder receptacle right next to the dryer receptacle. And make the short connection between the Load wires between the two receptacles. If there's a dryer, then there's probably a washer nearby, and a nice water pipe to use for ground.

    <BR>
  3. Mambo Dave

    Mambo Dave Backyard Adventurer

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Oddometer:
    5,944
    Location:
    11 ft. AMSL
    Good stuff Nitro Acres and Poolside, thank you. Very good stuff to ponder and plan with.
  4. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Oddometer:
    12,580
    Location:
    Salt lake city, Utah
    P B G, Jim you guys need to remember I have no clue about electricity (and/or electronics)

    I will love to have a "Shopping list" (I think I have most of the items already) I just need the gauge and type of wire and also a simple how-to so I can do the work with out "Thinking" ergo making mistakes

    In any case a million thanks for all the help:freaky
  5. nod

    nod As good as a wink

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Oddometer:
    421
    Location:
    Cary, NC
    Quasi-related question to all this electrical wiring business - can one run current backwards through a breaker?

    Here's my use case: I would drop an additional outlet on my dryer line for the don't-yet-have welder, and don't-yet-have generator. When the apocalypse hits, I do the ghetto-transfer-switch thing:

    • flip the main breakers (to isolate the house from the grid)
    • shut off any other non-essential breakers
    • shut off breaker to my "dryer" circuit
    • connect and fire up generator
    • turn on "dryer" circuit to connect to remaining load on house
    Will this make the breaker sad? (Will it even work?) Or would it be better to put my generator tap on separately, attaching to the mains bus bars after the input breaker? The chicken way costs me some extra hassle, cable, and an outlet - I know, it's really not that much - but the thread of discussion got me thinking about it and now I'm curious.
  6. P B G

    P B G Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    10,001
    Location:
    Greater Chicago
    Nod, this subject is covered.

    The main issue for legality sakes with "backfeeding" or plugging a generator into an outlet is that in all likelihood you won't be using a generator in a worst case scenario because frankly if your generator is gas, it will be bad gas, and the thing won't run, and it will be made in china anyhow.

    So lets be honest, your ghetto jumper wire backflow works, but if you forget to flip something just the once, and you shock and kill a lineman your ass is grass, so just do yourself a favor and buy the kit that interlocks a small subpanel to your main board and skip the ghetto ass jumper method.


    Back to Ricardo.

    Big wire never hurts, the bigger the less taxes/cooler the wire will be. And that way it will never limit your welding or trip breakers due to restrictive flow.

    Use wire nuts, get good connections, use electrical tape, and for god sakes turn the damn power off first.
  7. nod

    nod As good as a wink

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Oddometer:
    421
    Location:
    Cary, NC
    Okay, I am amused that you concluded (not unfairly) that if I was too cheap to buy a transfer switch, that I was too cheap to buy a decent generator, buy good gas, and store both properly. (I at least have the gas covered - if only because I had a boatload of grocery store kickback points from a holiday buying spree that gave us $1/gallon off each fillup. Got to get the full 35 gallons I'm allotted donchaknow.)

    I am rightly and suitably chastised, because I did not consider anybody past my panel - and while I do complex and order-specific tasks for a living, generally there's nobody's life at stake. Just can't help myself trying to MacGuyver it sometimes.

    Got a pointer to any transfer kit you would consider worthy? (At the end of the day, it's just a high-current triple-pole double-throw break-before-make switch in a heavy metal box, right? Say that three times fast.)

    To try and drag this back into the same zipcode as welding - I have seen browsing through catalogs various self-powered welders (intended say for mounting on maintenance trucks to run standalone). I'm sure some have had convenience outlets for running power tools/lights/etc. Lord help me but every expensive toy has got to be some kind of Swiss Army knife for me (got a GS after all, didn't I?). Is there any practically smallish implementation of these welders that could pinch hit in a backup generator role, or are they just stupidly large and expensive beyond all sense for a hobbbyist/hacker type application?

    It would save me the price of the extra outlet on my dryer circuit. :hide
  8. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,887
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    Yes, that's about it. Except that it's automatically operated. You could make your own with relays, MacGyver. :lol3

    Yea they aren't cheap. But many of them put out a good amount of line power, some make 3 phase. Hey, how about a cheap Asian-made diesel-powered generator?

    <BR>
  9. slackmeyer

    slackmeyer Don't mean sheeit. .

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,181
    Location:
    Berzerkeley, CA
    One of my dreams in life is to live off the grid, mostly solar, but with a big diesel powered generator/welder to weld and to run the big shop equipment.

    Someday.
  10. Whitebread117

    Whitebread117 I do what I want

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Oddometer:
    455
    Location:
    abroad
    Check out Miller Bobcat series. 10kw single phase or 11kw 3 phase generator plus onboard stick welder. Accessories add mig and tig capabilities. Around $3500 new for base unit. A "big" unit like what you're imagining can easily run $15-20k.
  11. nod

    nod As good as a wink

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Oddometer:
    421
    Location:
    Cary, NC
    Wow, me likey - given the typical Generac 10kw standby fixed generator is ~$2.5k, it's not a big leap to add a welder on there. This supposes I could actually get out the door with just the "base unit."

    Wish I could justify the Trailblazer 302 Air Pak - for Swiss-Army factor, a generator/welder/air-compressor/battery-charger? SWEET. But yeah, getting close to that $15k number...

    Back here on my planet, I'd be more likely to get a MillerMatic 180, a Generac 5kw cart generator, and use the existing Craftsman 5HP compressor and Craftsman battery charger. <sigh> A man can dream...</sigh>
  12. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,887
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    Soon, brother, soon. I'm sure we'll be making alcohol from cellulose before too much longer. That'll run your diesel just fine. Grasses, and hemp will eventually win out for fermented fuel feedstocks.

    <BR>
  13. bobbed06

    bobbed06 Cavalera Conspirator

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,236
    Location:
    That one place......
    Question...... I am working on a Upside Down Fork Conversion on my DRZ 400 and the frame stop is slightly high and I need to extend it. I was thinking of making a duplicate tab and drilling 2 holes in the OEM frame tab and slug welding it in.

    Details I need to confirm are....

    1. What type of steel will be best for this job?

    2. The bike is built so how do I protect the electrics from shock?

    3. What type of welder should I use and what settings?

    I have atatched pictures of the job I need to complete. My buddy is a welder and has a welding truck with several welding machines so I have options and a welder that can do the job. I just need to confirm with knowledgeable motorcycle guys first so he doesnt fry my bike electrics, since he is mainly a structural welder.
    Thank You In Advance for assistance and time spent to reply.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  14. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,887
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    <BR>Any old steel will be fine. A scrap steel piece from your buddy's structural welding truck will work. He'll more than likely know the weld settings.

    There's many ways to attach the extra piece, I would maybe drill some big plug welding holes into the added piece instead of the original tab, if I could remove the triple clamp and stand the frame up vertical. Or cut a rectangular piece, a little smaller length/width, weld to the bottom of the original tab on 3 sides, and grind to suit.

    Disconnect the battery and unplug the electronic ignition module.

    Put the work clamp near to the weld, sand off some paint to make a good contact.

    Maybe repack the bearing?

    <BR>
  15. bobbed06

    bobbed06 Cavalera Conspirator

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,236
    Location:
    That one place......
    OK, I will drill the extra metal tab instead of the OEM frame stop.

    I just talked to him and he said that he can safely TIG weld it with ONLY the battery disconnected.
    However, I will unplug everything and remove the Ignition Module as well. Should I remove anything else as a precaution? Charging stator,coil, switches, starter solenoids etc...?

    He says welding a completed bike is no different than welding on a piece of heavy equipment that has a Computer controlled engine of which he said he does all the time. He said that the key is grounding the job correctly at the weld site and using an additional earth ground as well to relieve static "eddy current"

    I am sending him pics of the job at hand now so he can advise which steel I need to get from him.
  16. ER70S-2

    ER70S-2 Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Oddometer:
    7,670
    Location:
    SE Denver-ish
    Do not clamp on anything supported by the triple clamps, the current will flow through the steering head bearings to complete the circuit and cook 'em. :eek1 Clamp on the frame as close as possible to the steering head.

    I'd cut a piece the same size as the one on the frame, champher all edges (3 on the new piece and 3 on the frame) and your buddy can run a horizontal bead around the bottom of the frame piece and on top of the added piece. The bead will lay down in the groove leaving more weld surface area than plug welds.

    Edit: I'm too slow. My DR650 frame is mild steel, any scrap metal he has will work.

    [​IMG]
  17. bobbed06

    bobbed06 Cavalera Conspirator

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,236
    Location:
    That one place......
    I see what you mean... I will have the entire front end off of the bike. The races will be in there but nothing else. At this point I am looking for as much info as possible regarding the protection of the bikes electrics. I will definitely be removing the CDI ( ignition module) and disconnecting the battery as well as advised previously. Do I need to remove any other electrical components?

    He said he will use the clamps that we are going to use to hold the new tab to the OEM frame tab for the ground, along with a grounding strap to aid in dispersing of static (eddy current) charges


    I may take this opportunity to remove the steering lock assembly since the new stem doesnt have provisions for the steering lock anyway.
  18. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,887
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    He's right about all that. Anymore I just tell people to remove the ECU or Ignition Module just to avoid the circular discussion. :D What I mean is that people will remove whichever electrical parts that they're not comfortable leaving connected. So I just start off making suggestions that mimic what they are comfortable with. I mentioned the Ign Module because if I remember on the DRZ it's right there easy to get to.

    The switches, regulator/rectifier, stator can all stay in place. Unless you want to remove them. In which case that would be the best thing to do. :D

    <BR>
  19. ER70S-2

    ER70S-2 Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Oddometer:
    7,670
    Location:
    SE Denver-ish
    :rofl :rofl
  20. bobbed06

    bobbed06 Cavalera Conspirator

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,236
    Location:
    That one place......
    :D I understand , I admit that I have no clue about welding on built bikes or welding for that matter.

    I dont mind removing most of the electrical components but will admit I did not wanna remove the stator, starter, and wiring harness.

    I also admit that I also had visions and thoughts of wiring gremlins later on if I didnt remove the wiring harness even if I disconnected the various components from the wiring harness.

    I am sure that I sound foolish but I do not have any more time or money to make any mistakes now... So gaining much needed knowledge is extremely valuable at this point.