ATF type "F" trans oil?

Discussion in 'Trials' started by ryone, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. mung

    mung Been here awhile

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    Have 04 300 Raga that since new have run GM auto trac.Incredible,smooth clutch action. A month ago tried ATF and right away noticed notchy, crunchy clutch and tranny action.Went back to auto trac and was immediately smooth again.Also have 12 300 Raga that has auto trac in it and it operates smooth and slick.I realize that GG says that auto trac is a no no but for ten years it has worked great for me with no problems.If auto trac creates problems, for me it has not happened in ten years.
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  2. 2whlrcr

    2whlrcr gooligan

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    Hah, another typical oil thread, there is no definitive answer. I've always used dino Dex in my Pros and have never had an issue either. It's cheap, can buy it anywhere and I make sure I change every 5-10 hours.

    Others have good luck with the GM Auto Trak. Pick your poison.
    #42
  3. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    I don't think it's crucial. I've been putting in oil until it is 7/8 up the bubble with the bike balanced upright. The 450cc Jim Snell recommends might be above the sight glass? Too high an oil level can add a little to the clutch-in forward impulse (aka 'drag') when cold.

    I found a neat trick yesterday to filling the crank case through the tiny fill hole. I had an empty 15-ounce (440cc) plastic bottle of Lucas 2 stroke oil, which I use. See it here:

    http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=45&catid=16&loc=show

    The tapered nozzle fits right into the fill hole and the volume at the 14-ounce line is 7/8 up the sight glass, so no more need to be careful measuring. BTW, it takes a bit for the oil to work into the center cases, so it'll be too high on the site glass if you fill it faster. give it a few minutes.

    Jim Snell says not to use AutoTrac2 oil because the later model Pro lighter Bellville spring will allow slip and 'failure of the clutch.' I assume it is a synthetic because he says it is 'too slick'. I use a synthetic, ATF+4. Snell recommends Dexron-Mercon or Type F, but I've had better performance with the low cost synthetic ATF+4. As for the clutch slipping, I'd have to be pretty brain dead to not notice when that's happening, and so far, it's just not happened, even with higher gears on power climbs. Now that I have the 300, I'll be aware of that.
    #43
  4. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Again go to gas gas UK. fair warning people to stay away from synthetic transmission fluids. not everybody's had trouble but they had enough trouble to put out the warning especially about the auto Trac.

    I'm using Yamalube its either 5w-30 were 10w-30 I don't have a picture of the bottle I got out of last but I haven't had any trouble like I had when I was using auto track 2
    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
    #44
  5. DerViking

    DerViking Shred

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    I am at almost 6 years on my 07 GG300Pro. I have used the Chevron Dex II/III and a similar Valvoline product. Finally used up the original clutch about 4 months ago. The local dealer worked on it awhile back. Not sure what he put in it, but the clutch dragged horribly until very hot, when it behaved, better....
    Drained and put in the Dex, no problems. It is cheap and readily available. I recommend rubber gloves. Makes my hands swell up.

    Plus 1 for frequency. Now that the bike has almost no value, I have backed off to a oil change every 15 or so hours. When it was new I changed after every ride, and had to wipe huge chunks off the drain plug, like they never flushed the cases... Now it is just a magnetic sludge, I assume from the clutch.
    #45
  6. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Beene, Im not picking on you but....

    the Problem is also, there are 2 engines for the GASGAS trials bikes, that were in production and stuff. the 2nd version produced since 02, the old version stopped in possibly as late as 04, yet probably not imported since 03? In 2002, Gasgas created and shipped trials bikes, using the "PRO" moniker *and engine* As of that time in trials, when anyone refered to the older models, we plainly refered to them as "TXT" models.

    This became hard to keep straight because in 2008 or so, somehow gasgas via "press releases" keep refering to the new bikes from the old and current "sir_name" if you will: of "year" TXT "race, raga, econo, and the Sandard production "non designated" Pro models. But since 2002/2003 we always say "PRO" when it is the NEW DESIGN Engines/Bikes to keep the knowledge seperate.

    the old (TXT) engines were 2 inches wider, and have completely different design, and HOLD MORE OIL of course, the crank bearings were oiled via the Premix OIL in the FUEL mixture. Pro models oil the main crank bearings with the transmission fluid. This (oiling the crank bearings part of the knowledge) is WHY chainging the oil VERY OFTEN is always suggested.

    450cc seems like recommended amount for trials "usage" with it resulting in reduced "clutch in-drag" that we have been using on the OLDER ENGINES. IF you are going to just ride the loop or TST, then full is smarter.

    FWIW, The new models aka "PRO" we've been using 375cc, Book states 400 I believe. I try to change mine Just before I ride an event, which is each month, with maybe 10 hours of riding... 375cc, which should give you just about half sight glass AFTER YOU Start engine once, the bike on the floor, standing perfectly perpendicular to the floor.
    #46
  7. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    What specific trouble did the AutoTrac cause for you?

    I'll keep an ear out for slip on the hill climbs behind the house. The 'new' Raga is quite the runner. If the slicker synthetics ATF+4 I use is going to drive clutch slip in higher gears and under max load, this motor can make slip happen.
    #47
  8. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    You are right about crank bearings being lubricated by the tranny oil. The parts list shows outboard-facing seals up to 2013. Perhaps an un updated exploded view? Or perhaps what is shown as outboard seals are additional seals? The bearings themselves are innovative, having integrated pressure-oil seals and O-rings. This Snell video shows left-side bearing details, but not much else regarding the crank assembly and both cases:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIfP8LSc-LI

    ...which is a shame because swapping cranks is what I'm doing next week. A 2009 well-balanced crank will go into 2011 cases, and the out-of-balance 2011 crank is going to get balanced and put back into the 2009. Same part number so all should fit.

    I looked at the left center case today. There are three bulges in the casting for drilled oil passages to the main bearing. Two are for lubing from the tranny, and one is for lubing from premix the traditional way, form the transfer port scallop in the case. There is no hole drilled there on my engines. They covered their bases when they first designed the casting. They could go either way by machining changes.


    It's going to be great fun to get deeper into these engines!
    #48
  9. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Beene,

    the fiber plates swelled more than they wore, with ATF that had autotrac2 formula, others argued with me, that ANY dynthetic ATF caused this same problem. Since the 2008 Raga, we bought new, I had pretty much quit using auto-trac2. My friend Spinner, kind of reminds me each year after dad got his new one, I got his, and we'd have to reset the finger heights, yet since 2010, we haven't "had" to do it, I will say I play on dad's 12, on my 11, and the 10 they all feel pretty much the same.

    Plus you are doing something to the 11 raga, according to your facebook note... Dad has the flywheel weight on his 12 along with the 'less compression" head insert, I have flywheel weight and normal insert, the 2010 has no flywheel weight & stock insert. the 2010 is zippy as hell.

    I also like the fact that I can go HI COmp insert next time I goto NM or mountains, and feel like I gave up less Torque/HP that I was used to. I felt like I had borrowed somoene's 200 when in NM, and it screwed with my confidence and timing a little. I think if I had HI-COmp insert all the time, I would hate it more when I visit high altitude, I dunno.

    Also note, I rode the 10 all "year before last August" with FWWeight on it, there is one helluva difference IMHO with Flywheel added onto these bikes. My truth-full Problem is the expanse in time since rode 2010 as "my bike"

    I am trying to recall IMHO, when I test rode my 11 {when mostly back to stock after dad took what all he takes} and the obvious changes in "tuning" done by factory, but I think it had the Flywheel weight still on it, and when I 1st moved up to the 11 I felt it was "snappier".

    But my main point is, I put the 2010 in 3rd the other night (before the ads) after cleaning it all up, and was shocked when I just for fun, gave it full throttle, on the driveway, to me, it was a beast and front wheel came up and all that, where with FW_Weight on the 11 (that was hotter to me when both were "stock" doesn't do this.

    Another problem is I been taking the flywheel weight with me bike to bike since our 2006 bikes. So this is probably an older heavier FWW maybe? Plus dad had at one, and one might been by S3, the other wasn't and now I don't know which is which, I know dad had bought the newer FWW for the 12, and I think someone got the FWW when I sold the 08? too damn many bikes, lol.

    Oh wait, if any this info helps you beat me... Then of course: I hate flywheel weights, you better do the low compression head instead, :evil LOLz.
    #49
  10. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Did it suck for me to beat you - infrequently - on an Econo:rofl? Will the fancy Raga 300 be a liability or a benefit? Only time will tell.

    You and Michael are high on the flywheel weights. I rode his `12 with the weight but not long enough to know if I'd prefer it. I did get used to a pretty snappy throttle on the 280.

    Intend to buy a low compression head insert anyway, just to have. That way I'll have all three.
    #50
  11. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    No it didn't suck, if I didnt like competing, I would just move down a class, and then post all the time how we should just make trials into a "trailride" so nobody has to work at being better riders than they are... LOL.

    NOW, I am having fun saying I know you are coming, and I will try my best to keep you from getting that "glimmer of hope" that it was anything but luck when you have beat me... (yeah trash-talk, lolz) YES I am hoping it will take you 2 or 3 months to get used to your new 11 "raga" bike, as I will be getting used to a 12 model I hope by the time we head to Trenton MO.

    ABout the inserts! Cool, this way I know who's got one I can borrow. I will have a high compression insert handy, for next year at Sip, LOL.

    Yeah, I cannot say enough about FWW. whether it is just mental (some will swear it is, if they know me) but I tried to ride the 08 without one, I didn't last long until I fitted it, and after fitment, I wouldn't go back, least until I could ride expert skillz levels, that I don't have.

    I can see "no weight" being handy as hell on a rock that you have to use more than one "spurt" up 8ft or something, but like I say, that isn't my class. PLUS, I use the FWW to make the bike easier to ride in the other 99% of the section's troubles. FWW might be a sad compromise for a big ZAP... But can over come with clutch, so who knows? But at any rate, it is a CF and a "2" if I can at least get the skidplate on top, where as some have 1 or 2 points before they got to that rock... if you know what I mean?
    #51
  12. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    I'm intrigued by the 'FWW' and may adopt one. I think my riding style s a bit more throttle aggressive, however, so maybe I'd prefer less flywheel inertia?

    At Sipapu I watched you tractor right over a nasty angular pile of rocks closer to the exit (section ? half way up the hill on Sunday - remember the bitch tight transition turn just before the rocks?) Anyway, I scratched my head over that one and it took me until the third time through to clean that part. Makes sense now. Your 300, with flywheel weight, and altitude... a really mellow ride.
    #52
  13. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Yah, mellow, pretty much. That in itself could be a "crutch" too I guess. I wonder if I adopted no FWW, and high head, if I then would be forced to learn to hop and bounce, instead right now , I just slip the clutch and turn and Burn.
    #53
  14. DrKayak

    DrKayak Retro Rider

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    So.... is this just a GasGas deal that the clutch does not work with oil? Is running ATM related to all the times I heve seen post on replacing the tranny on a GasGas?

    When I got my Techno it had the blackest sludge in the gear box and the clutch was great.

    When I got my Rev3 it had ATF and the clutch was good. I switch to the manfacture's recomended oil weight and the clutch was good. I could tell no difference.

    When I got my Evo it had somting clear that was likely ATF put oil in that one too and the clutch is great...

    I don't get the ATF deal. I mentioned it to Adrian at LewisSports and he was completely against ATF. Not that I changed to oil on his advice alone.. I care more about the bike lasting forever more than a .05% better feal in the clutch. Aren't the gears better off with oil?

    :hide
    #54
  15. jonnyc21

    jonnyc21 Trials Ninja

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    I run the oil instead of the ATF and feel its the better option for me and my wife. (Wife's TXT pro 125). Just my 2 cents.
    #55
  16. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    ATF is oil. Being 'against ATF' is being against oil. It just happens to have red die and some additives.

    It's all oil and all has additives. What matters is viscosity, viscosity index, and friction coefficients as affected by the base (synthetic versus mineral) and additives.

    Oil is quite complicated, actually, which is why most of the time you just try things and stick with what you find works. Synthetic ATF+4 works very well for me in GasGas Pro bikes. If I ever have a problem, I'll try something else.
    #56
  17. jonnyc21

    jonnyc21 Trials Ninja

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    Well kill me for forgetting to include the type of oil... "Honda HP Transmission Oil 80w/85w"

    And when did I say I was against ATF? I remember indicating the other was a better option for us... to clarify in the case of my wife she feels it has a wider engagement zone and likes it better than the ATF the first owner had in the Gas Gas when we got it.
    #57
  18. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Sorry. Not intending to insult. It just nice to have more specific info to reference later.

    Here are some - I hope - helpful specifics. First the viscosity ranges for gear oil:

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9eLpPW6KxzjVTFfMm53dFBYRlE/edit?usp=sharing

    And motor oil:

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9eLpPW6KxzjMDRzR1pVR1R0cm8/edit?usp=sharing

    That's right. The SAE system's numbers are NOT a measure of viscosity but rather a range of viscosities. It is possible, then, to have a 7 weight fork oil be thinner than a 5 weight fork oil! I wish every oil sold had to list viscosity at room and elevated temperatures, and the viscosity index. It's too subjective otherwise. Also, the SAE gear and motor oil numbering systems don't match. An 80 weight gear lube is sometimes less thick than a 30 weight motor oil. Confusing.

    Here is a link to tech doc on hydraulic fluids that is educational regarding oils. ATFs are found later in the doc. They are all mineral based (non synthetic), however. The synthetics should have a higher viscosity index (less change in viscosity with changes in temperature). In there are comparison graphs where you can see the viscosities and viscosity indexes of typical oils we use in transmissions.

    http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/520l0463.pdf
    #58
  19. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    By the way, I found Google Drive doesn't easily support permanent links. The links will have a limited time span of ?. If you find handy some of the tech stuff I post as jpegs, it would be a good idea to download the doc and save it.
    #59
  20. jonnyc21

    jonnyc21 Trials Ninja

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    Thanks for the info, some great stuff in there. Have a good understanding of some of what is in there but this has lots of extra insight. :D
    #60