Aviation MegaThread!!!!

Discussion in 'Shiny Things' started by EvilGenius, Jan 1, 2009.

  1. koncha

    koncha .

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    I love the F-86. There was a derelict F-86 at a small airport near where I took my first flight in a small aircraft. Here is a picture of it years before when it was at a local park:
    [​IMG]
  2. chazbird

    chazbird Long timer

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    I get the visceral aspect and that's probably "it". I once got a ride in a Sea Fury. Believe me Fury was a very apt name. The piston fighters of the mid to late 40's were probably the epitome of mechanical "modernism". Some of the same argument could be applied to certain styles of architecture, even clothing, of that general era. (Think Chrysler building of the '30's) The high end stuff like that from that era would be so expensive to build these days no one would bother with building or buying it because the price to build exceeds the functionality by many levels.

    Those 50's era jets being so cheap to buy is precisely because they are so expensive to operate. They burn at least 3 times the fuel as a piston, so even while Jet-a (the proverbially available fuel) is nominally cheaper than Avgas, many of the those jets may not use Jet-A, or have restrictions when they use it. That's negated in the pistons because to use full boost on a Merlin I think you need 120+ octane, and actually if I remember correctly I think it may be 140 octane. That stuff is not cheap. (whatever version either of them use). The overhaul cost of a jet, compared, for instance, with a Merlin is many times more expensive. Also, the earlier jets, or military fighter jet engines in general, have fairly short service life, certainly compared with a modern commercial jet engine. Aside from my conjecture, I'd be interested in hearing from people who actually could compare these apple to oranges cost structure.
  3. Trixie

    Trixie No, not that Trixie

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    we should try to enlist someone from The Collings Foundation to join here and share. They have both piston and jet operational military aircraft in use.
  4. chazbird

    chazbird Long timer

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    Rough fuel flows:

    Hawker Hunter, 17,000 ft*, high cruise 7000 lb hr. Low speed cruise, same altitude 4500 lb hr. (* 17,000 is about as high as ATC will let you fly the aircraft not on a IFR flight plan, IE so you could "play")

    North American P51D 8000 ft normal cruise 8,000 ft - 435 lb hr. (at 17,000 ft. it would be about the same since it is super charged)

    The P51D seems a little cheaper to operate here....

    Engines for the Hunter are no longer made, nor probably supported. You buy these cheap spares and hope there's useful life left on them because besides not being supported, they are really really expensive materials in there. The Merlin isn't "made" any more, but there is a cottage industry where people make most of the parts, as needed, certainly not cheap, but not unobtainable.

    The Hunter also has nifty things like de-icing systems and powered controls, fun stuff to keep running. The Hunter still is a very beautiful aircraft....
  5. Lornce

    Lornce Lost In Place

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    Thanks, Chaz. I had no idea jet turbines used so much fuel.

    :huh
  6. chazbird

    chazbird Long timer

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    Yeah, I over nerded-out there. But the jets, in particular turbo-fan vs turbo jets, have gotten a lot better in fuel consumption but it is still a thirsty proposition all 'round. I suspect the "built" Reno type unlimited piston engines would burn twice what the standard Merlin does. Last "your tax payer dollars at work" department: Military jets in afterburner typically burn 5-7 times more fuel than they do at normal maximum power.
  7. chazbird

    chazbird Long timer

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    Or, for a little progress report, a twin engine Boeing 737-700 with 150 seats will burn about 4900 Lbs per hour at 39,000 ft and be going about 450 knots. The Hawker Hunter, a single engine aircraft, with one seat, would be around 3000 lbs per hour at 40,000 ft, going about 80-100 knots faster. So things have improved somewhat.
  8. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer

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    The new geared turbofans coupled with aerodynamic improvements coming with the 737max and the A320NEO are expected to yield 12-14% improvement in fuel efficiency.
  9. chazbird

    chazbird Long timer

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    Yep, that's huge. I knew an engineer at GE who said everyone would go ape-shit happy when a 2-3% increase in fuel efficiency was obtained. The fans (essentially a propeller) on the high by pass and ultra hig-by pass engines now provide 60-80% of the trust, vs the remainder being from the core, which is what all the old turbojets provided. I once and did 4 instrument approaches, to two nearby airports, with a hold or two, all at low altitudes, in a "pure" turbo jet powered Lear 24 and we were definitely needing to stop for fuel when we were done.
  10. Bigger Al

    Bigger Al Still a stupid tire guy

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    The built racing engines can burn anywhere from 350 GPH (Merlin) to 550 GPH (R-4360).


    FWIW, the last conversation I had with a P-51 owner included the phrase "$1,500 per hour to operate." That figures in maintenance, insurance, and such. Not a cheap hobby, that's for sure.


    Hey Lornce; the offer still stands. You get yourself down here and we'll go to the Air Races in Reno. I gots me a spare Airhead for you to ride. :deal
  11. Lornce

    Lornce Lost In Place

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    Thanks, Al. Would love to take you up on your offer some day.

    :thumb
  12. chazbird

    chazbird Long timer

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    $1500 an hour? Not in my territory - lately going to the movies is what I can afford - but that isn't as bad as I'd have thought. That's in the vicinity of a Citation Jet operating cost. My 435 lb hr. quote for the P51D is unmodded engine at cruise, not combat power settings. Aren't the unlimited engines putting out well over 3000 hp? For someone who lives but 200 miles from Reno and who's never been to the races, how much does a day ticket cost? Which day would be best to check it out? Most of its a nice ride for me too.
  13. PunkinHead

    PunkinHead Moobless Adventurer

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    That's about the figure I heard from a friend who has a pair of them. He bought a T-6 because it's so cheap to fly. Cheap for him, but 2 hours in the T-6 blows my entire monthly flying budget.

    Same guy used to have a French trainer jet (can't remember the model) that he'd tow from the hanger to the hold short line because to taxi it that far burnt $600 in fuel.
  14. slideways

    slideways permanent ex-pat

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    Love my Cessna 152, $89/hr wet.
  15. PineyMountainRacing

    PineyMountainRacing Oops....

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    Kinda bittersweet day for me, 444RT took off with her new owners this morning out of KVNC, enroute El Salvador, via Key West - Cozumel. Will be used in an Air Taxi operation, so they say... On the market for a year, I needed to sell her but didn't wanna sell her at the same time. Been my trusty steed for 15 years. Hate that I will likely never see her again.

    [​IMG]
  16. Bigger Al

    Bigger Al Still a stupid tire guy

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    The fast guys are running between 3K and 4K HP. Exact figures are hard to come by. :deal

    The Air Races are September 12-16 this year, and the best day to go is Sunday. That's when the fast guys in the unlimited class pull out the stops. A general admission ticket will run you $29, and a pit pass (highly recommended) will cost $32. We usually bring lawn chairs and sit on the ramp in front of the GA grandstands.
    Be aware that they won't let you bring in food, but a large, unopened bottle of water is allowed. Be prepared for every kind of weather imaginable. In the 40+ years that I've gone there's been rain, snow, sleet, hail, high winds, and perfect sunshine.

    PM me if you'd like more info.

    http://www.airrace.org/index.php
  17. chazbird

    chazbird Long timer

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    Those Reno prices seem reasonable to me. Now if, I can talk someone else into going - he's once expressed an interest and now that he's retired....I wonder if Charo still plays at Harrah's?

    Aztec: Not the sexy 310 look but an underrated aircraft but carries quite a load...wasn't it the aircraft the term the pop sickle airplane was invented for?
  18. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer

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  19. Donster

    Donster No trick too cheap

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  20. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer

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    That's how I found it, actually. What a curious development.