Avon Storm Ultra II Delamination Crash

Discussion in 'Face Plant' started by ravenranger, Nov 13, 2010.

  1. ObiJohn

    ObiJohn Screaming Banshee

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    I went with the PR3s when my '09 FJR's factory Bridgestones wore out at around 4K miles... got the service and decided to replace the tires since the front was cupped and the rear was down to the wear bars.

    I'm glad others are willing to experiment. My motto is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Haven't heard anything bad about the PR3s.

    If I had that lumpy tire, I'd offer to give it to Avon. Since it hasn't failed catastrophically, might be easier to understand what is happening and why.
    #81
  2. Guano11

    Guano11 Behind Bars....

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    I called Avon's tech line, not to "complain" but to just let them know I had a failed tire they might be interested in. I offered to send it if they wanted to inspect it.

    Tech rep asked if it'd been repaired. It did have a plug in it that I'd forgotten about (until it was dismounted), but I told him the bulge was nowhere near the repaired puncture.

    "That's how it happens" he said. "After a tire's plugged, air can still enter the carcass itself and work its way to another part of the tire causing a failure. They can fail catastrophically, even if the tire's holding air. That's why we don't recommend riding on a repaired tire." I envisioned an air bubble, like on a sticker or on window tint, that you're trying to squeegee out to the edge to work it out.....

    I know tire manufacturers don't/can't recommend continued riding on a compromised tire -- but a lot of folks do anyway, myself included. Hey, it's holding air, isn't it? I assumed it was a liability issue. Anyway, an air bubble migrating its way around the carcass of a tire still seems a bit far-fetched, but I suppose I can take the guy's word for it.

    Here's the plug. No telling how old it is; I probably plugged it with less than a couple hundred miles on the tire -- isn't that how it always happens?
    [​IMG]

    From treadside. The puncture was actually in the depth of the tread:
    [​IMG]


    The bulged area is over 270deg from the repair, taken from the direction of travel. In other words, IF the tech's theory was correct and some air was trapped initially at the plugged site, that bubble worked its way 3/4 the way around the tire before settling in on the failure spot.

    Also, this piece of wire bit me as I ran my hand inside the perimeter:
    [​IMG]


    The tech wasn't seem interested in the tire; I got the impression he'd seen many such failures before. Also, he said any returns are handled through the vendor (but maybe he thought I was going to demand restitution, which I wasn't).


    Bottom line: I don't think I can't blame Avon for this one.
    Bad on me for not only running an overdue tire, but running a repaired overdue tire.
    #82
  3. ravenranger

    ravenranger rave

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    That's an interesting theory but it doesn't explain why three Avon Storm 2's and one Avon Distanzia all had problems for me.

    None of my tires had plugs in them but I got the "air bubble" :topes theory handed to me, too.
    #83
  4. Homey

    Homey Been here awhile

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    Air doesn't have to follow the direction of travel of the tire, just saying. :evil
    It will follow the path of least resistance.
    #84
  5. Guano11

    Guano11 Behind Bars....

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    Like I said, sounded pretty far-fetched to me, too. Maybe my plug repair was a convenient scapegoat....

    Agree. I was assuming the carcass was still relatively uniform, and that the road itself provided the "squeegee force" that worked the bubble around the perimeter until it found a place to bed down & grow.
    #85
  6. SilkMoneyLove

    SilkMoneyLove Long timer

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    Well, it tells me all I need to know about Avon. You offer them a tire for exam and they are not interested.

    They offer a very weak excuse. I'm sorry, but a properly made tire doesn't get air bubbles that destroy the carcass. Other manufacturers don't have this problem.

    Avon have made up their minds about what happened and so have I. I just won't buy Avon tires.
    #86
  7. clogan

    clogan Adventurer

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    Man!!!

    Wish I had seen this thread two weeks ago. I just installed a new Avon Storm XM on the rear of my C14. After reading this thread, I think I'll order some PR 4s, and send my almost new Avon to the trash heap!
    #87
  8. Guano11

    Guano11 Behind Bars....

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    Give 'em a chance. I'm sure there are a lot of happy users out there; these forums tend to amplify the not-so-happies.

    But keep an eye on 'em. :deal And welcome aboard.
    #88
  9. atomicalex

    atomicalex silly aluminum boxes

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    How air bubble move in the carcass.... I wish I could draw some diagrams, but I'm not sufficiently artistic.

    The nylon and steel plys are made up of cord, which is made up of individual strands. As the tyre is laid up, the rubber comes into contact with these cords and strands. During vulcanization, one of the things that needs to happen is that the rubber needs to get intimate with the cords and strands and fully permeate them and bond with them. Rubber does absolutely form bonds with (brass-coated) steel, polyester, and nylon. That is the point of it all, and when it doesn't, it's an adhesion failure.

    What can happen during a puncture is that the cord begins to pull away from the rubber. This can be an adhesive (cord/rubber interface) or cohesive (internal to rubber or cord) failure. Either one is bad news.

    For an air bubble so formed to migrate, either the rubber never fully bonded to the cord and the air simply migrated to a weak spot (this indicates failure to cure properly, could be over- or under-cure or just bad chemistry), or the failure is growing to the weak area and the entire migration path is severely compromised.

    With this many delams, my gut feeling is that Avon had some serious cure issues with these tyres!
    #89
  10. PT Rider

    PT Rider Been here awhile

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    Any experience with the new Avon Storm 3D X-M?
    Storm 3D X-M

    High Mileage Sport Touring Tire

    [​IMG]





    • High performance plus extended mileage
    • Road Hazard Warranty included
    • The X-M version will deliver 15%-20% extra mileage compared to the current Storm range
    • Interlocking three dimensional points hidden in the sipes to improve stability and grip, limit tread flex and allow the tyre to warm up quickly (3D Sipes)
    • High performance single and multi-compound super rich silica tread enhances wet grip (SRS)
    • Superb handling and stability characteristics


    $155F/$172R in GS & V-Strom sizes. These seem to be well liked by the British riding magazines.





    By the way, does everyone know that Avon Tyres was bought by Cooper Tire & Rubber Co. of Findlay, Ohio, in 1997? Last year a buy-out of Cooper by Apollo Tyre of Gurgaon, Haryana, India, fell through.
    #90
  11. ravenranger

    ravenranger rave

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    Looks good for mileage but I'll not run Avons again. I just don't trust the multi-compounds anymore.
    #91
  12. atomicalex

    atomicalex silly aluminum boxes

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    Oh, damn. Multicompounds.....

    To do this right, you need a real carcass compound with a tread compound over it. The carcass compound is designed for cord adhesion, and the tread compounds are designed for traction.

    Specific carcass compounds went out of style for performance automotive tyres a while back, I have no idea if they are common for MC tyres. They should be for multicompounds, though.
    #92
  13. SpikeC

    SpikeC Been here awhile

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    Some years ago I had a BMW K 100, and ran a set of Avon tires. The rear developed a bubble and a friend had the same thing happen. Another guy who was an Avon fan said that they don't do that. They have been doing that for many years, not all of then, but enough. I think that I will stay with Michelin.
    #93
  14. ErikMotoMan

    ErikMotoMan Been here awhile

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    Dunlop Roadsmart II - you will be amazed. Seriously.
    #94
  15. worncog

    worncog YBNormal

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    Interesting finding this thread, and glad you survived that incident Raven.

    I too had an Avon Storm Ultra II failure. Tire was originally purchased in 2011 and put about 6700 miles on it before removing for a fresh PR3, IIRC. Recently removed another worn PR3 and needed a tire to ride an upcoming 12 hour rally. Hey, how about that Avon with lotsa tread left?

    NoMar mounted and balanced the Storm and off I went. Tire developed a vibration and subsequently flatted 9 hours into rally with tread separation in two opposing locations with a belt split in excess of two inches in length, similar to a previous pic. Luckily it deflated pulling out from a bonus and not during the 'spirited' backcountry run previous to the stop. Sorry no pics, left tire 300+ miles from home. It took an act of God to find a new or used tire on a Sunday to make it home after the 108 mile tow episode back to Rally Central. That is a story in itself.

    Tire had no outward road induced damage and still had significant tread remaining. Inspection upon removal revealed a visible belt split and two large separations on opposing tread surfaces. No other internal damage visible.

    Can't speak for the 3D, but I'm happy to stick with the Michelins for now.
    #95
  16. ravenranger

    ravenranger rave

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    Wow worncog. Glad you made it out of that okay.
    #96