Battery Alternative

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by Yellow Pig, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. Rapid Dog

    Rapid Dog bikes, booze, broads...

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    ...does that rubber battery tray just pull out or is there a trick to it?
    #61
  2. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    Here is a chart of several replacement batteries compared to the OEM: <table align="left" border="1" width="1028"> <tbody><tr bordercolor="#000000"> <td class="style5" align="center" width="142">Model</td> <td class="style5" align="center" width="131">Type</td> <td class="style5" align="center" width="150">Activation</td> <td class="style5" align="center" width="125">Length</td> <td class="style5" align="center" width="69">Width</td> <td class="style5" align="center" width="69">Height</td> <td class="style5" align="center" width="69">CCA*</td> <td class="style5" align="center" width="71">Polarity</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style5" align="center" height="56">Yuasa (OEM)
    YTZ14S

    </td> <td class="style5" align="center">AGM-VRLA</td> <td class="style5" align="center">Factory</td> <td class="style5" align="center">6.00"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">3.44"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">4.38"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">230</td> <td class="style5" align="center">+ - </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style5" align="center">Interstate
    FAYTZ14S
    </td> <td class="style5" align="center">AGM-VRLA</td> <td class="style5" align="center">Factory</td> <td class="style5" align="center">6.00"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">3.44"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">4.38"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">230</td> <td class="style5" align="center">+ - </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style5" align="center">Powersports
    WPZ14S
    </td> <td class="style5" align="center">AGM-VRLA</td> <td class="style5" align="center">Factory</td> <td class="style5" align="center">6.00"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">3.43"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">4.38"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">250</td> <td class="style5" align="center">+ - </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style5" align="center">Odyssey
    310
    </td> <td class="style5" align="center">AGM-VRLA</td> <td class="style5" align="center">Factory</td> <td class="style5" align="center">5.43"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">3.39"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">3.98"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">100</td> <td class="style5" align="center">- + </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style5" align="center">Braille
    B106
    </td> <td class="style5" align="center">AGM-VRLA</td> <td class="style5" align="center">Factory</td> <td class="style5" align="center">5.8"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">3.4"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">4.2"</td> <td class="style5" align="center">210</td> <td class="style5" align="center">+ - </td> </tr> </tbody></table>



    *[​IMG]
    #62
  3. Rapid Dog

    Rapid Dog bikes, booze, broads...

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    chrikee, why did I pay so much more for the Braille if it has less cranking ppower tahan the stocker???:loco
    #63
  4. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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    Because of the 527 Pulse Cranking Amps at 80 degrees for 5 seconds. Honestly, when was the last time you cranked your starter for 30 seconds? Pretty sure way to let the smoke out of your wires...

    And if it's 32 dress below snow falling on the ground?... call me a puss, but I'm staying in and watching Long Way Round again... :lol3

    Cold Cranking Amps was a measurement developed for cars. And if it's zero outside, I fully intend to use mine!
    #64
  5. Rapid Dog

    Rapid Dog bikes, booze, broads...

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    ...OK, I'm in! :ricky
    #65
  6. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) is mearly a way to rate batteries for comparison purposes. All batteries can be rated at different temperatures and duration. CCA is one of the industry "accepted" methods of rating. All reputable battery manufacturers will give the CCA. Not all will give the Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA):evil. There is a correction factor for converting CCA to CA. I'm pretty sure there is one for converting CCA to PCA.

    I suspect that the biggest difference in cranking ability with all of the batteries (less the Odyssey) that fit our Katooms, is how long they have set on the shelf prior to being installed. Shelf time and high temperature are the biggest killers of lead acid batteries. Especially with "factory activated" batteries.
    Just sayin'
    :freaky
    #66
  7. PowerCell

    PowerCell Manufacture

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    Excellent job on putting this chart together CP... :thumb

    I think it might be improved by having the links directed to only the manufacturers websites... just sayin'...
    #67
  8. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    Good idea. I'll get right on it.
    :jkam
    #68
  9. silverdog

    silverdog Been here awhile

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    I have a Braille and it seems to turn the motor faster than the oem Yuasa!
    #69
  10. Hiram Walker

    Hiram Walker Commuter

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    i've had a braille for about a year and no problems with it. Seems to have been a good change for me.
    #70
  11. camel990

    camel990 Adventurer

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    One in the normal tray and one under the seat. Fabricated a set of red and black heavy connector cables cut to length then routed down the left side between the frame just below the upper part of the fuel tank and then behind the tank to route thru the opening near the tank shut off valve and into the battery box. Also wired a pigtail connector for my charger to hang just in behind the rear shock adjustment handle. (no requirement to wrench your bike to connect a charger anymore). I think the CCA rating is for a different temp as compared to the others in the chart above.
    #71
  12. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

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    #72
  13. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    From Odyssey's website:


    Cold Cranking Amps: For all the power, durability, and life of our technology, the cca ratings can seem disapointing. That's because the cca ratings are misunderstood. Odyssey batteries are SLI (starting, lighting and ignition), so if you are looking for a starting or reserve battery the cold cranking numbers can be irrelevant.

    The "standard" cca test measures the output of a battery for 30 seconds of crank at 0 degrees with the ending voltage of the battery being 7.2v. Some companies use 15 or 20 seconds and some companies use 32 degrees which can make for better results.

    A vehicles starter isn't designed to withstand 30 seconds of cranking so we feel the batteries starting power is more important. The Odyssey part numbers represent the 5 second cranking power of the battery.

    The PC680 is rated at 680 amps for 5 seconds, 595 amps for 10 seconds, and 525 amps for 20 seconds. Cranking power is even higher for the first four seconds. Similar sized lead acid batteries are only rated at 180 - 220 amps.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    The PC310 is the only Odyssey that will "drop in" the ADV, the Braille B106 is as close to a true one for one drop in replacement for the Yuasa.

    Brailles descriptions of the B106:

    Performance
    Voltage: [?]12 Volts
    Full Charge Voltage:13.8 Volts
    Short Circuit Current (Max Cranking Amps):760
    Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 5 sec @ 80F: [?]527
    Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 10 sec @ 80F:461
    Pulse Cranking Amps 20 sec @ 80F:407
    Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 80F:314
    Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 32F:283
    Cold Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 0F: [?]210
    Reserve Capacity: [?]Less than 20 minutes
    Capacity (C/20 rate): [?]10
    Internal Resistance:15.8 milliohms (.0158 ohms)
    Life Cycle @ 10% DOD: [?]2000

    and their statements regarding CCA:

    What does CCA mean?
    Cold Cranking Amps is a rating used in the battery industry to define a battery’s ability to start an engine in cold temperatures. The rating is the number of amps a new, fully charged battery can deliver at 0° Farenheit for 30 seconds, while maintaining a voltage of at least 7.2 volts, for a 12 volt battery. The higher the CCA rating, the greater the starting power of the battery.

    ______________________________________________

    So far I am drinking the Braille B106 KoolAid. And based upon "field tests" of others, they have had good performance and no reported failures or running them down beyond their reserve capacity.
    #73
  14. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    Excellent info H2W. The last part about a "new fully charged battery" is most revealing. In addition to the other superior attributes of the Braille, I suspect the fact that their batteries are "activated" closer to the end user putting them to work goes a long way towards reliability and performance.
    #74
  15. viatormundi

    viatormundi Citizen of the world

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    For the PC310 Odyssey we need to change the polarity right? Tomorrow, I am supposed to pick up my bike from the service. Let's see if they have changed the problematic Yuasa, if not, then I will order a Braille from UK.
    #75
  16. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    Also important info:

    Life Cycle @ 10% DOD: [?]2000

    This means that if the battery is cycled to 10% Depth of Discharge (where the battery still has 90% reserve capacity) then recharged, that it will perform near/at spec for 2000 cycles. Beyond this number of cycles the performance of the battery will begin to fall off both in max current and reserve capacity.

    One of the key pieces to long battery life is charging it to full after discharging it within a reasonable time period, and/or maintaining with "smart" charger.

    Batteries left unmaintained or in a state of discharge will fail sooner. Checkout all the battery maintenance and management on a electric vehicle for information about how important this is.
    #76
  17. Bill English

    Bill English ICUUCME

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    I am fairly certain all the "replacement" batteries listed have almost identical technology in the chemical storage. As Head2Wind points out the maintenance of a battery probably influences the performance a heck of a lot more than the incremental differences between each battery available for replacement in your KTM.
    What appears obviously different between them is:
    Weight, size, cell capacity, package material and quality.
    The WPZ14S is 9.8 lbs compared to the 5.9 lbs of the PC310 from Odyssey.
    Immediately, I would think the weight differences certainly suggest the ability of a manufacturer to contain more electrolyte and electrode material in a given package. So,... it makes sense that the PC310 does not offer as much capacity, reserve, or CCA compared to the others. But that doesn't make it a bad battery. It is what it is.

    To me, taking everything into consideration, the nicest, most efficiently packaged battery appears to be the B106... but by a negligible margin. And for what is readily available in the product literature, the stock battery electrical specs are as good as any, especially discharge capacity. Obviously Braille provides many additional electrical specifications to persuade people to purchase the product, hopefully based on verifiable tests. Like I said, the Braille product looks, smells, and performs good.

    If we were to have all of the PCA, or other electric spec data for the other manufacturers, the picture perfect battery may be as confusing as ever. As mentioned by other people, the only electrical rating standard that seems to be readily available for each battery is CCA at 0 deg F. And all of them are equitable at between 200 and 250 CCA except the PC310.

    However, I think that most of us agree that the CCA rating is useful, but does not describe battery discharge efficiency for real world parameters.
    Theoretically, a battery should provide the same amount of energy regardless of the discharge rate, but in reality... internal energy losses cause the efficiency of a battery to vary at different discharge rates and temperatures. Perhaps in this respect one could consider battery fatigue as an indicator of battery quality/ durability. Example: PCA at 30 seconds @ 0 deg F... While another person might only look at the 5 second data @ 80 deg F as a litmus. After all, who is starting the bike for 30 seconds.

    Cheers.
    #77
  18. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    Significant differences in quality usually are associated with the purity and type of lead used for the plates, either AGM or some sort of "starved" electrolyte. There is some special magik to the alloy/creation of the lead that increases the porosity of the surface, in effect increasing the surface area available for the electrolyte. Some batteries are better than others in this aspect.

    The connection of the plates within each cell and across each cell to make it into a "battery" are different between high and low quality batteries. Also the size and quality of the terminals on the exterior. All you have to do is compare a WalyWorld battery terminals to a Odyessy, Braille or even the Yuasa (they are typically "top shelf quality) to see the difference.

    another way to compare batteries, provided that the case is made in a similar way and material and they are of similar dimension, is weight. Basically, more LEAD equals more capacity/ability to do work and therefore will weigh more. Of course this is not completely fair because of what I pointed out previously regarding all the other stuff....

    Aint this fuN? :rofl
    #78
  19. WIsixfitty

    WIsixfitty ceiling unlimited

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    is this price close to being correct for an OEM Yuasa?

    $202.xx. (includes tax etc) at a dealer discount.
    #79
  20. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    #80