BergDonk's DR650

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by BergDonk, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    [​IMG]

    Whizzing up some spacers for the plate to get it the right distance from the crankcase. Each of the 3 bolts/studs used needs a different length to get it to line up properly.


    [​IMG]

    Paring off the 90 mm diameter retainer. Note the 'lip' that will protrude into the case and make contact with the seal, which sits <> 1 mm below/inside the case.


    [​IMG]

    The nylon bit now bolted with countersunk 5 mm screws and nylocks to the plate. Nice and snug.


    [​IMG]

    Should be enough clearance, <> 1 mm from the pins on the RK EXW which is 1 mm overall wider than the DID VMs used previously. Might not fit with a stock 525 though, I'm using a 520.


    [​IMG]

    All back together, started up, and the seal is retained.

    What's next, 3rd gear?
  2. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    Cheers Bushy, it will not blow out now.

    I recall my old IT490 used to suck base gaskets into the transfer ports. Wasn't much meat there. I ended up making my own 'different' gaskets that stayed put. Always something to fix :freaky

    I didn't want to glue the seal in place the other day as it would have delayed my departure waiting for it to go off, not that I got where I'd planned anyway :mad?

    If I had glued it in, cleaning up next time I have to swap the seal would increase the chances of getting crud into the cs bearing and inside, so I wasn't keen on the idea. No doubt a possible expedient fix though, and if I couldn't figure a out a suitable keeper, would have happened.
  3. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    On a more positive note, the new grip controller works great, recommended.
  4. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2007
    Oddometer:
    5,385
    Location:
    Sunshine coast qld
    nova racing has a lovely new machined third gear set that you could fit for a bit of insurance against a blown gear box.
  5. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    But I wasn't planning on pulling it down until at least 200,000 kms...............
  6. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    A bit of notchiness was developing in the head bearings, so time for some new bearings, and an upgrade, hopefully.

    As you may recall, I fitted some KTM forks to my DR at the beginning of last year, just on 30,000 kms ago, and near the beginning of this thread. I initially fitted the KTM races to the Suzi cups, but this failed, so lathed up some bushes to go around the KTM cups and got them to equal the Suzi dimension, 52 mm OD.

    [​IMG]

    They fitted up fine, top and bottom with new bearings at the time,

    [​IMG]

    After some thought, and not long after I'd got it operational, I decided that when it came time, I'd try to fit the Suzi bearing to the bottom of the steering head. This seems like a good idea because the Suzi bearing is 1 mm taller, so may have a <> 10% increased load capacity, and/or, wear out slower. Its normally the bottom ones that are the problem, as they take the hammering. And because the ID is 1 mm larger, it'd fall over the shaft on the top down to the bottom, making assembly easier, as long as the bush could be fitted to get it to work.

    I already had a new set of Suzi bearings unused from last time, so ordered some new KTM ones.

    [​IMG]

    In the above pic, on the left on the blue rag is one of two original spacers from the stock forks. Heavy lumps of steel bushing that usually get junked for some plastic ones when they are upgraded. They proved to be very useful for this exercise.

    So, disassemble front end, making use of the engine crane so not too much had to come apart.
    [​IMG]


    I needed to sleeve the KTM shaft on the bottom with a 0.5 mm thick bush. Back to the lathe, and thinning down one of the original spring spacers as a bush, and boring the other to make it into a die to press the bush on over the shaft I got the Suzi race fitting snugly. You can just see the bush in the pic below.

    [​IMG]

    After deciding that it should be OK, I hammered out the existing cups. What was nice was that my bushes stayed put. Meant that I had to remove the bottom one afterwards to fit the Suzi cup, but the top one could stay put for the new KTM bearing going there. Bit hard to see in the pic below, but its still there.

    [​IMG]

    So all bolted back together, and good to go. And I've got a set of bearings left over for next time, one of each of the Suzi and KTM pairs. FWIW, both sets are Pyramid parts purchased on eBay. More than 30,000 kms would have been nice, but its had a bit of a flogging, so OK life, I think.

    And the value of having a lathe and a good press validated once again.
  7. Snowy

    Snowy Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,038
    Well, that has to be the most interesting way I've seen of stopping the seal from popping.

    Mine wore through the lip in the seal at about the 45,000km mark, which happened to correspond with me stopping at the Suspension Smith in Fyshwick.

    Laurie pointed at the oil pissing from the bike and suggested I had some issues.

    People thinking I have issues isn't news to me....then I realised he meant the puddle of engine oil under the bike. Given the full synthetic fancy pants oil and all the additives I use it was about a $70 puddle.

    I just rode it home as it was and had oil spread from ass hole to ear hole by the time I got there. No oil in sump anymore.


    Bunged a new seal in, presto. Still going strong. How many seals have you changed in yours Steve?
  8. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    This was the first time, and as noted above, took two to get me home. So 48105 kms. It probably would have got me to Qld and back, it wasn't weeping much, maybe not at all, but I prefer preventative maintenance. The second one is in place now with the keeper. Haven't ridden it anywhere yet as I've been busy with stuff, and decided to sidetrack with the steering head, and its was sitting in pieces until the new bearings arrived. Might get out in the next day or so. No shed or ride time today as we are supposed to be doing a burn.
  9. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    I just spotted this update on another thread:

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19365463&postcount=25

    2 bikes, 2 popped seals, and new cases under warranty.

    I did use some connections I have into the back door of Suzuki here in Oz, and they have not heard of any cs seal issues at all, but will admit that there has been the odd 3rd gear failure. Dunno whether they would publicly though.
  10. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    No burn today after they realised the weather would close in and be unsuitable. Which meant that I could get a test ride in. Did about 100 kms of varied terrain, a few jumps, some rocky bits, and gravel roads. I wanted to get the rear suspension working through full travel, and make sure the steering head was all seated.

    All good, no play in the steering head, and its steering sweetly again. No contact from the chain or css with my seal keeper. :rayof

    I also had a new rear tyre to try, a Sava MC23:
    http://www.savatyres.com.au/DualSport.html

    I quite like the look of the tread pattern, which may or may not mean anything, but whatever. Not much use to DR riders as they don't currently list a 17". Firstly, the sidewall is short, so a 120/90/18 Sava compared to Dunlop 606 of the same size is the same width, but about 12 mm shorter, or 25 mm overall diameter less. I pulled the forks up 7 mm to compensate somewhat. First riding impression is that it hooks up well, finding grip cutting through the ball bearing gravel, and seems like a good match with the Scorpion Rally up front. More kms will reveal more.

    Till the next installment....
  11. Snowy

    Snowy Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,038
    Where'd you find the Sava?

    I was in Joes today crawling through the tyre racks. Not a bad range. I get a decent discount when I see Corie.

    I was checking out a Pirelli Scorpion Desert in a 140/80-18. Oh yeah.

    Thinking about a Scorpion AT for the BuMW. There's no point putting proper off-road tyres on it. That just breaks stuff.

    But for the DRs, I want to try a wider 17 inch rim and lace another 18 inch rear up so I can take advantage of the width I have in the RMZ swing arm on mine. KTMatt reckoned I had too much tyre on the DR when I had a 140/80-18 on the rear, but the traction was unbelievable. Just night and day difference trying to compare to some of the 17 inch favourites.

    I want to do some sand riding on the DR, and my recent escapades on sand with it and the BMW have convinced me I need to find better flotation from the front end. I don't know if it's set up related or not, but it sucks in sand. Maybe it's just me. I did grow up riding in sand, and it feels entirely unnatural on the DR for some reason. The BMW isn't too bad.

    I'll have to try the other DR in sand and see. It has a lower rear end, and more rake by direct comparison.
  12. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    A mate of mine can get the Savas for me in Sydney at wholesale price, Heidenau too, and others, although I tend not to take advantage. Gotta collect up there, and COD. I do have access to Dunlop, Pirelli and V Rubber wholesale too, and ex Canberra, but takes a litle while, so I tend to keep stock here in the shed.

    I generally get the Michelin and Mitas off Corey, or sometime Hal at TJs, and both look after me when I do.

    The problem with a too wide tyre is that all it does is wrap the tread around and bag up, so they wear more or less the same, don't have the side grip, and float more, and slow down the steering. With a 2.5" rim, 120-130 is max for me. Prefer the steering/handling of the 120, but the 130 T63/E09/E07 last longer than the 120/90s I've tried so far, and float a bit better in the soft stuff, ie 606 and V Rubber.

    I have to be careful with sidewall height with mine. The Ohlins compresses a bit more than stock. A 120/90/18 606 just kisses the guard on full compression, the 130 T63/E09/E07 just don't.

    Front setup for sand is usually to stiffen up the compression damping so it doesn't collapse, and helps hold the front up. Opposite setting to rocks.

    Big Berg has a pair of MC5 Metzelers fitted at the moment, a 120/100/18 up back, which is too tall for my DR. The front works good, but after less than 100 kms, the knobs are tearing off already. $65 front, $75 rear from MCAS in Sydney. The back has been on a bit longer and seems to be holding up OK. I will try the Scorpion Rally front on it, and if it works on the lighter bike, might just be the only front I ever get again. Time will tell.

    And of course we all ride a bit different, with differently setup bikes, so what I like, may or may not work for others and visa versa. I know you like the 952 on the front. I like them on the back of Big Berg, but didn't like the front at all, so untried on the DR. May or may not work on it for me, but very happy with the Scorpion Rally. The rear will go untested by me as its too big for my current fleet.
  13. Snowy

    Snowy Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,038
    With the extra weight of the BuMW I've been playing with tyres on the front.

    Obviously as full knobbie produce some less than satisfactory manners on road. The D952 did the job in the dirt, but you were riding a 220kg chookie on road. Not fun in the rain.

    The K60 front was ok on-road, just didn't quite hook up off road.

    The Mitas E07 did a slightly better job off road, not much different on road, but wore really fast. It was showing sings of really bad braking wear on the leading edges of the knobs just off centre, which compromised the only advantage it had over the K60.

    The Pirelli Scorpion MT seems to work about the same as the Mitas off road, but a lot better on road. Almost like a Scorpion Trail on road. Wearing really well.

    The poor old DR is sitting in the shed in pieces, with the lower frame Frankenstein'd back into a working example. I have a D952 front and a C02 Stone King rear on it. I had a ball in the wet up in the Brindies on those, right up until I binned it and broke everything. Stupid tree roots. Lower frame rails are now 5mm thick moly steel, with an extra piece of half pipe welded on the bottom half to make them even more unbreakable.

    I swapped the number plate and rego label holder onto the other DR and just ride it around. Having 2 x 2008 models has an advantage. Register 1 and ride which ever you want.
  14. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    My oldest daughter (24) decided to get her Ls a few months ago and wanted one of the bikes in the shed to go with them, preferably the missus' KLX. She scored the missus' old XT250 which I fitted some MT90s to. They seem OK for her needs, around town and occasional back road trip home, but I think I would prefer a knobbier front for me on the DR. And the XT doesn't really put enough power out to test the rear. The forks and disc front end is XL Honda I fitted years ago, and its also got a treadly speedo from Aldi with a Trailtech pickup from eBay, so < $35 for the speedo setup. And a Kappa top box for her convenience. I've also tweaked the carbs. Yep dual carbs, and a pain they are too to setup. Also got the DR650 mirrors and others bits and bobs from the shed. And it older than she is. Gotta kick it, and she's learning, reckoned it was at least 100 kicks to cold start it yesterday, so next time shouldn't be more than 90. She'll learn, then buy her own with a button.

    [​IMG]
  15. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    Here is a pic of the Sava mounted up:

    [​IMG]

    I normally can strip and fit a fresh tyre in about 10 mins. This one took heaps longer, the toughest I've ever dealt with. The beads are quite wide apart, wider than the rim, and they kept coming out of the well as I was levering it on. And then of course, it wouldn't lever on. Eventually :D
  16. Kommando

    Kommando Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Oddometer:
    7,525
    Location:
    In the sand
    Try one of the newer front sand-knobbies. My DR was almost unrideable in sand for me with the stock TWs on it. With an AMS Sand Snake MX up front, I could ride street pressures in 1st and 2nd gear through bottomless sugarsand, and I'm an offroad novice. It did pretty well in mud too. It even lasted surprisingly well on pavement, but don't trust a knob like this when cornering or braking hard on pavement. It definitely felt squirrely on the road until I got used to it.
  17. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    Found some images of the Sand Snake front, looks interesting. Might try one next time I head out to Hattah on the Berg, if I can get one here. I found them online at Amazon for $21.95, but no shipping to Oz.

    I also not that they are quoted in some places as being 'Excella'. This was a brand of cheap Chinese made tyres here a few years ago. Tried a couple of the mud tyres and they worked and lasted well. Don't seem to be around these days. Got a 'Mitroc' on the back of the KLX at the moment, $65 from Corey, and its been great. Got me all around Kowen arrowing for a week in April and a variey of other uses before and since. Grips, finds traction, and lasting well.
  18. Bushmechanic

    Bushmechanic Adventurer

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Oddometer:
    74
    FWIW snowy i find in the sand the footprint of the front tyre is more important than the tread pattern, I use the biggest bridgestone m203 becasue they are big, sand specific tyres seem to be small profiles... dunno why

    biggest profile ive seen was a cheng shin on the front of a few BMW 650 gs's that came through with the safari
  19. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,026
    Location:
    Snowy Mountains Oz
    Its interesting that you say that. I'd always understood that to be the case, that tread pattern didn't matter much in sand, and floatation does. Over here I get little exposure to sand, the occasional river flats for a few hundred metres or so of sandy gravel and the occasional bit of softer beach sand down near the coast, but not like out west, km after km. When I went to Hattah for the first time a few years ago, 4 days on Big Berg, the guys with the better tyres seemed to do better. What a knobbier tyre seemed to offer, especially on the front, was more communication on the edge, the shittier tyres would be OK, then just let go without warning. I can certainly tell the difference on the DR up back between the 120 and 130s in the soft, with the 130s floating over the top noticeably easier.

    Last year I did two outback trips, the first with a E09 front and E07 rear, the second with a 606 front and a E09 Dakar rear and covered some of the same tracks and trails. Second time around was much easier, even though I had 2 broken ribs and a damaged foot after an altercation with a fence 1/3 the way around. And the second trip was also unsupported, so had all the camping gear on the bike too. The 606/E09 combo was heaps better in the soft, yet the E09 front is suppoosed to be a 'desert' tyre. On this year's trip outback I used a Scorpion Rally front and a T63 rear, which is more or less the same as an E09. I reckon it was better again in the front, but maybe I'm riding better too, and maybe its got into my head that I had a better tyre on too....... Who knows?

    Must get over to Esperance and try some real sand one day soon Bushie :evil
  20. Bushmechanic

    Bushmechanic Adventurer

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Oddometer:
    74
    Interesting stuff Steve you certainly get to try out a lot of different tyres

    while I find the tread pattern doesn't seem to make as much difference as the footprint a new tyre is definitely better than an old one so there must be a sand specific tread pattern that works nicely, the compromise being that probably means having less knobs to wear out.

    a sand treaded 110/100/ 21 would be a tight fit between the forks but i'd like to try one, brother made a bolted front tyre that worked out about a 110 width, was good but the bolts stuffed up the keeping in the air part

    I watched the footage of the safari bikes on our beach, (didn't get to be there i was camped in the bush waiting to watch a stage that got cancelled :1drink ) most of them looked like they were struggling with the front tyre and most of them had little Michelin deserts on the front which to me look like a bad tyre choice for the sand. Ive tried to tell many people about the bigger fronts, not many bother to try it.

    I might have 2 bikes going soon, one each, have to heat treat the head and cases, do some machining fit bigger valves seats etc and have been waiting on some parts for about 8 months now :eek1