BergDonk's DR650

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by BergDonk, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    Ahhh, how to improve on perfection? CF body, custom frame, 700 kit perhaps. Wait, someone has already done it :deal, I wonder who?

    How about this one for an upgrade option? Ben Ballard has been busy:
    www.husaberg.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16625&p=137061

    [​IMG]

    Should have it over your measly 700, although not sure about the height, and weight up there for solo use.

    The only thing that I might eventually do is graft on a linkage rear end like my 501 has instead of the PDS. The PDS works fine once setup, but the 501 tail is better, and very similar to the DR650 one with the Ohlins in the way it hooks up. Of course they both have less to deal with, so it may not be that simple, but if I trip over an older frame one day for the right price, or my 501 dies. But in the meantime, I'm just happy riding them.

    In many ways, getting the DR650 setup has brought me full circle, and back to my CB500, except I've stayed out of the engine, and the frame is mostly stock. I'll quote myself from early in this thread FWIW, "I've learnt over the years to mostly leave engine internals factory, and play with the outside for reliability, and cost effectiveness. The best money you can spend is actually on rider training followed by suspension" without forgetting ergonomics.

    A real soon now job is a new water pump seal, again. Ah well, routine maintenance. The 501 seal is still original on the end of the cam shaft
  2. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    Back to DRs
    [​IMG]

    I've posted this shot elsewhere, but might as well here too. Just been dodging wildlife and searching for a lost DR and rider, and now almost at Tibooburra and heading home back in April after the Flinder's Classic.

    The lost one decided to lead from Merty Merty and took the old Strez instead of keeping going straight for Cameron Corner. We looked for him at the bus, but no. He must have been on a mission, so must be at CC, not. He did arrive after crashing however, and some discussion about our next move.

    [​IMG]


    He'd realized after he stopped to take pics of us cresting dunes that something was wrong, and headed back to look for us. Then he was in a hurry, and riding outside his comfort zone, and guess what, the track jinked after the crest of a dune, and he didn't quite.

    All good in the end, but might not have been...............

  3. Bushmechanic

    Bushmechanic Adventurer

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    it is a nice beast I have the full specs on the M1 engine, 40kgs, same as a raptor engine, can big bore those to 990 which would be cheaper but not as cool, in that weight class the folan twin is only 45kgs

    FWIW the nice lil blue water seal out of an 07 ktm65 water pump is very good in the berg

    back to DR s yes my mate has been all over the place on his, absolutely loves it to death sheepskin seatcover and all ...
  4. Bronco638

    Bronco638 Nobody Home

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    PM Sent!
  5. Phreaky Phil

    Phreaky Phil Long timer

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    Hey BergDonk, where are you at with the Cush drive bearings ? I changed mine out half way through the TAT along with wheel bearings. It wasn't really bad but had movement in the sprocket. The wheel bearings were really clunky !
    That's after about 6000km mainly offroad. I has to get a new Cush drive hubb prior to the TAT as when I went to change bearings the new one just fell in :eek1 one side of the rear wheel had already been pin punched by previous owner and I had to pin punch the othe side when I changed it on the TAT.
    Just about ready to ditch the whole rear wheel.
    Looks like Procycles Rad hub uses the stock Cush drive so no advantage there. Seen some pics of Talon Cush drive hubs. Haven't been able to find out much about them as far as durability.
    My DRZ front wheel seems to chew through front wheel bearings as well, they are only small bearing so not surprised. I would like to find another wheel that uses larger bearings.
    Cheers Phil
  6. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    Hmmmm. Cush bearings are an issue for some of us for sure. A couple in my DR inner circle have not got to 10,000 kms either before noticable movement developed, and based on my experience, that's time to change them out.

    I've now got 3 cush hubs, the original, a second hand one from the wreckers, and a new one. The original was damaged a bit when the original bearing collapsed at 14210 kms. As noted previously, it showed negligible movement a few 100 kms before. I replaced it with a NSK which lasted 7257 kms before developing noticable play. I then fitted an All Balls for 766 kms before removing it, it was still OK, and then fitted the first of the double row SKF 3205s.

    The SKF 3205s were fitted to the original hub and the second hand one in time for the centre trip last year. The original hub was in the support vehicle, just in case. Interestingly, both hubs needed the bearings retained because they weren't tight enough. I used Loctite 641 and have not had them move, so works good. The stock size bearings in the damaged hub didn't need the Loctite, so not sure what's going on there. I haven't put a micrometer on the bearings, but that may offer a clue.

    So the first of the SKF 3205s in the second hand hub developed play at 10259 kms. I like to think that the double rows won't ultimately fail as catastrophically as the stock type bearings seem to, but I changed it anyway. And I was disappointed at only getting 10,000 kms out of it. Its also the same bearing as KTM use on some of their bikes like the 640. Although I've since found out that they have been problematic there too, and have been superseded, links in the link below refer.

    The next hub, the original one with a SKF 3205 was then fitted up. It now has 7383 kms on it and is fine so far.

    As I was off on another bigger trip and expected to do about 5-6000 kms, I fitted the original hub again, after fitting it with a cheap no name eBay bearing from the UK. Its currently at 8118 kms and still fine. The Loctited bearing pressed out out fine, and the replacement was Loctited in again.

    And then I was planning to head for QLD a couple of months ago, and aborted when the cs seal popped, and expecting to do <> 6000 kms, I fitted the new hub, #3, with another no name eBay bearing from the UK, pressed in this time, and no Loctite needed. its currently at 5603 kms and still fine too.

    So right now I have 3 hubs fitted with 3205s and all fine with varying, but less than 10,000 kms each. I will rotate them and wait for play to develop and see how long they last. It does seem the cheap eBay bearings will last about the same, or more, than the exxxy$ SKFs too. I still have 2 new eBay 3205s in the shed to wear out after these are done too.

    BUT, in the meantime, a thread got going over on DRR about cush bearings and it seems that a 3205 angular contact isn't really suited to this application, and probably explains why my first one only did 10,000 kms, and KTM no longer use them either. Page 4:
    http://drriders.com/post59830.html?sid=384928fa5bd403b5141925ecd84783a8

    So now I also have a new 4205 in the shed, a double row deep groove ball bearing based on enim57's views. I will keep using the 3205s for the time being to use them up, but will fit the 4205 in rotation sometime too. Just needs a different spacer. You could trim down the stock one, put a shoulder on it, but they are a bit loose on the axle if locating a bearing for me, so I'll whiz up a new spacer. Not a big job. I suspect the seal will still fit OK too, especially with the back taper ground off like I did to mine, and the seal retainer I made for the wider 3205 wouldn't be needed with the 4205, maybe.

    I do add grease if needed to cover the balls in my wheel and cush bearings, although I didn't to the SKF 3205s as I felt I couldn't prise the seal out without damage.

    Original rear wheel bearings went at 18500 kms. A cocktail of NSK and All Balls went in for 2967 kms and were changed out prior to the centre trip for NSKs which developed some play at 18408, so swapped for the current NBRs, currently at 13721. Interesting that the originals and the NSKs lasted an almost identical distance.

    My original fronts were swapped at 22233, just before the centre trip. They seemed fine, but seemed like a smart thing to do nevertheless. The replacement NSKs went 17780 and although also still felt fine, swapped for fresh NSKs that now have 13583 kms on them and are still OK too.

    So, for what I use the DR650 for, stock cush bearings probably should be changed each rear tyre, or up to 7,000 kms, 3205s are maybe a 10,000 item, and a 4205 will last? Rear wheel bearings seem to be about a15,000 km item for me, and fronts 20,000 plus, just not sure how much plus equals yet. My original hubs seem fine, with the bearings pressing in and out OK each time.

    I've also swapped my cush rubbers 3 times, so about 15,000 kms for them, although I'm not sure it was really necessary, but don't want things failing Outback.

    Next time I have the back wheel off, I'll have a look at machining up a Delrin sleeve to go over the cush hub where it fits into the wheel hub as suggested elsewhere. Can't hurt?

    Any help?
  7. Bushmechanic

    Bushmechanic Adventurer

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    can you get a spherical roller to fit Steve?
  8. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    Anything's possible, have you a size in mind?
  9. Bushmechanic

    Bushmechanic Adventurer

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    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]
    • Item: 22205EXW33 Roller Bearing
    • Type: Nachi Spherical Roller Bearing
    • Cage: Steel Cage
    • Dimensions: 25mm x 52mm x 18mm/Metric
    • ID (inner diameter)/Bore: 25mm
    • OD (outer diameter): 52mm
    • Width/Height/thickness: 18mm
    • Size: 25 x 52 x 18 mm
    • Quantity: One Bearing
    • Dynamic load rating Cr: 63,000 N
    • Static load rating Cor: 48,000 N
    • Limiting Speed:
      • Grease Lubrication: 10,500 RPM
      • Oil Lubrication: 13,000 RPM
    • Made in Japan
    [/SIZE][/FONT]


    http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/25mm/Kit10508


    dunno what the stock size is for physical fitment but 63Kn static and 48Kn dynamic sounds pretty good

    id put the biggest one in there possible, those stock bearings shouldn't fail so something odd is going on, a spherical roller takes misalignment out of the picture
  10. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    So that's another viable option too I guess. It'll no doubt tolerate movement, but any thoughts on how it'll actually locate the hub? I don't know enough about bearings :cry

    The stock 6205 is 25 x 52 x 15, the 3205 I'm currently using is 25 x 52 x 20.6 and the 4205 double row is the same as this one, ie 25 x 52 x 18
  11. Bushmechanic

    Bushmechanic Adventurer

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    prolly needs a seal too? so maybe a narrower one similar load rating to stock and run a separate seal. im just guessing as usual, with no parts in front of me im not sure if its a good idea or not

    wierd stuff happens in alloy casings with flex and harmonics. after i made retainers for my main bearings I found out the outer race gets pulled inward by 1.5mm :eek1:eek1:eek1 HTF that happens with roller bearings and only 0.8mm endfloat I don't know :evil
  12. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    My 3205s are 2RS, so double sealed. I then made a new spacer to suit, and still had some meat to put the outer separate seal in, but not much, so added the retainer to clamp it up. Been fine on all 3 hubs so far. And although a 18 mm wide bearing is 3 mm wider than stock, its still 2.6 mm narrower than the 3205, hence my suspicion that a retainer for the seal wouldn't be needed with the 18 mm bearings.

    Posted this pic earlier, but here it is again:

    [​IMG]

    The spacer on the left is the original, the one on the right is the one I knocked out. The inner step fits inside the bearing to support it, mirroring the spacer that fits between the cush hub and wheel hub. The length of the step is 6.6 mm. The middle diameter is for the seal, and the same OD as the original spacer. The outer OD is just the diameter of the bar I started with, and protects the seal a bit, so left it there.

    You can see the seal sitting proud of the hub on the one on the right, but if its 2.6 mm further in, it might not need the external retainer.

    I'll wear out what I have before I try something else I guess, but maybe someone else wants to do some more testing, surely I can't be the only one doing R&D on these :brow
  13. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    So in between discussing cush bearings, I have finished the first (last?) 10 production countershaft seal retainers. They are all spoken for, and I'll send them off on Monday.

    [​IMG]
  14. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    fuck suzuki needs to employ you.

    Doing all teh r&d on a part and then manufacturing them all in a few days.

    you would have a complete bike designed and built in a year
  15. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    Gotta service the Berg and KLX, and reassemble the Scorpa. and fix the window on the kids car, and.....and ....... Ah well :pissed

    Instead I've been making css retainers.

    Retirement is wonderful, but its been 2.5 weeks since I've been out on any bike and I'm getting toey, so this next few days, I'm doing some 2 wheel time :D
  16. Bronco638

    Bronco638 Nobody Home

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    Is anyone interested in having Steve produce another run of the counter-shaft seal retainers? I'm offering to be point man on this. It looks like the most efficient way to do this is to have Steve make a run of 6 units.

    I'd like one. Anyone else? Feel free to reply here or PM me. I'm not going to require any money up front as long as your word is good. :D
  17. llamabomb

    llamabomb Adventurer

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    I'd be in, as long as the price isn't ridiculous.
  18. Bronco638

    Bronco638 Nobody Home

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    The retainers are $40. Of course, each of us would split the shipping charge from Oz to the US. And, then there would be shipping from me to you.

    You're just north of me so I'm guessing less than $50. If you happen to find yourself in Chicago-land, I'd be happy to meet you someplace near O'Hare.
  19. llamabomb

    llamabomb Adventurer

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    Sounds good - count me in.
  20. Phreaky Phil

    Phreaky Phil Long timer

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    Thanks Steve, might have a look at one of the 4205 bearings when we get home. Would be nice to find a good reliable setup for the Cush drive. As you already know, they can go from ok to stuffed in a short time. Give me a PM if you do another bunch of seal retainers.
    Cheers Phil.