BETA 2-Stroke Thread. 250RR, 300RR, X-Trainer

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by ToriMish, Feb 4, 2017.

  1. shortman

    shortman 500 XC-W and CRF320L

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    I just bought a Beta 390 RR a month or so ago and am still planning to buy an X-Trainer so I've been watching this thread.... I really like my 390 and expect to like the X-Trainer even more.... With that said.... I do like the oil injection and will wanna keep it on the bike so it begs the question....

    What would it take to add a warning light to tell you there is no flow why do you guys think they didn't do that from the beginning?
  2. wwguy

    wwguy Been here awhile

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    Here's some oil injection technical mumbo jumbo to chew on:

    The electrical systems on 2015 and earlier 250/300RR bikes were never designed to provide power for sensitive electronic components. All they needed was a stator with 3-phase AC output and regulator rectifier to convert AC to DC to run the CDI and recharge the battery. The battery on these bikes is only used to run the electric starter. Everything else runs of off stator power when the bike is running. At this point it's important to note that rectified 3 phase DC is not "smooth" power, such as what comes from a DC battery or similarly filtered power source. The rectifiers only "clip" the top (positive) portion of the AC sine wave, resulting in rapidly fluctuating DC power as shown in the image below. This is a fairly common practice in the motorcycle industry and is sufficient to run the CDI (ignition), headlights, and charge the battery. Some manufacturers use the battery as a power filter between the stator and electrical system, but Beta does not. This is likely to remove the battery as a single point of failure for operating the bike. On Beta bikes it's also worth noting that stator output and CDI current draw both vary based on engine RPM, which adds some further voltage fluctuation into the electrical system. But everything was working fine with this system before introduction of oil injection.

    [​IMG]

    For their oil injection solution Beta turned to Dellorto, an Italian company with a long history of innovation and manufacturing of carburetors, fuel injection systems, and associated controls for motorcycles and other vehicles. Dellorto supplies Beta with the ECU and PLE oil pump used in their oil injection system. (They may provide the TPS too, but I'm not sure about that.) The oil pump, and perhaps the ECU too, appear to be much more sensitive to variations in electrical voltage. The variable-speed piston-style oil pump operates off of a Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) motor. There's plenty of general info on the web about how PWM operates, but the gist of it is that the controller uses a solid state transistor to turn a steady voltage on and off really fast to vary motor speed. Less "on" time and more "off" time runs the motor more slowly, and more "on" time vs. "off" time results in faster speeds. The controller is pre-programmed to operate based off of the design voltage and motor speed operating range. To do this successfully requires a predictably steady supply voltage, which we know Beta bikes didn't have before O.I.

    [​IMG]

    To accommodate this new system, and still support the original battery-free design, Beta added the 4700uF capacitor and "diode group" on the 2016 models, effectively creating another regulator rectifier system on the bike to support ECU runtime operation rather than battery charging etc. If the diodes or capacitor fails due to corrosion or electrolysis the OI system voltage varies outside of design range and the OI system operates erratically or sometimes not at all. Overpumping vs. underpumping vs. no pumping depend on what failed. This open loop control system has no capability to monitor actual voltage or verify oil flow as part of its diagnostic circuit. All it appears to be capable of is detecting if any of the sub-components (TPS and oil pump) are disconnected.

    So to summarize: In order for OI to operate predictably the ECU, TPS, oil pump, diode group, and capacitor must all be electrically interconnected and operating properly. Failure of any of these devices, or the connections between them, will cause the OI system to fail and/or pump at unpredictable rate.

    [​IMG]

    Aside from the above there are also several mechanical issues that can result in undetected O.I. failure. Some examples include:
    - Pinched or kinked oil tank vent line. (Several bikes have been discovered shipped this way from the factory.)
    - Pinched, kinked, or disconnected oil line between the pump and intake manifold port.
    - Oil line coming loose from the pump in the airbox.
    - Electrical connector breaking off of the pump in the airbox. (This seems to result from over-enthusiastic air filter maintenance.)
    - Intake manifold metal port coming loose from the rubber manifold.

    Beta's OI system is complex, fragile, and fraught with opportunities for failure. That not an opinion, it's a fact. There are plenty of firsthand stories to support this and more are coming in every day. Is the sky falling? Probably not. Yes, it seems to work well when it's working well. But your kidding yourself if you think that your OI system will work tomorrow just because it worked for the past x hours. Ask yourself these three questions: 1) Am I willing to accept the mechanical risk to my engine of undetected OI system failure? 2) Do I have a contingency plan for OI failure in the field? and 3) How do I know that my OI system is providing the correct amount of oil for my engine? If your strategy is blind faith in Beta's engineering of this system I humbly suggest that your day of pain may coming.

    OI was introduced as a marketing "feature" to offer convenience and lower emissions compared to pre-mix. Beta's Race Edition bikes don't come from the factory with it and most racers and hard core enduro riders are removing it from their 300RR's and Xtrainers early on. There's a reason for that.
    ToriMish, Bitingdog, Granitic and 4 others like this.
  3. wwguy

    wwguy Been here awhile

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    My guess is that Beta used an off-the-shelf ECU from Dellorto that doesn't include this capability. Lack of a viable flow sensor for the application may also be an obstacle. The problem with the Beta OI bikes isn't really the Dellorto components, but rather Beta's mechanical and electrical implementation of them.

    Theoretically though, adding a warning light is easy. But adding an inline low-volume flow sensor, connecting it to the ECU, and modifying the ECU to compare actual flow with target flow and then turn on the warning light when appropriate isn't so easy. It's also an expensive band-aid that doesn't address the root cause of oil injection system failure.
  4. Marylander

    Marylander Been here awhile

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    Ignorance is bliss you know. You're taking away my ignorance, dang it.
  5. STRich

    STRich Adventurer

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    wwguy, well said in post 642!!!!!
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  6. boomshakalaka

    boomshakalaka Been here awhile

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    wwguy, thanks for doing the legwork on this.

    After doing some quick bar napkin math* to get a rough idea of the average flow rate in the system and a bit of googling, I think I understand the major design hurdle for OI: there aren't flow meters that have accuracy anywhere near the levels needed for real time oil mixing, so there's simply no comprehensive set of mechanisms that can alert the rider to all possible system failures.

    *XTrainer fuel capacity:8.5L
    Oil tank capacity: .55L
    Tanks of fuel/tank of oil: ~3
    Riding time to empty tank: 1.5hrs**

    So, 8.5/(.55/3)= ~46:1 average mix ratio (8.5/90)/46=.002L per minute of oil on average-- and it's supposed to go as low as 100:1, or .0009Lpm

    Good luck finding a flow meter that is accurate to the thousandth, much less ten thousandth.

    ** this is very conservative, as a shorter duration gets us a higher flowrate, getting us closer to being able to implement a flowmeter into the system
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  7. wwguy

    wwguy Been here awhile

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    I agree. I've got 25 years experience in engineering, maintaining, and operating industrial control systems for food & beverage, water/wastewater, and oil & gas applications. Flowmeters for low-volume low-pressure, high-accuracy applications use advance technology, have specific installation criteria (low vibration, fixed horizontal or vertical position, etc.), are bulky, and they're very expensive. Not at all applicable for a dirt bike application.
  8. Granitic

    Granitic Rider

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    Awesome work Roger. This "system" is not systematic. The appeal of convenience for consumers and cheap components for accountants trying to shave every lire from manufacturing seems like a bad combination for a backcountry machine.
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  9. Tharaphita

    Tharaphita Been here awhile

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    I wonder does the 2018 tail flex better? Im currently trough 3rd tail i think on my 2015 300RR. Or is Polisport much better?

    Earlier i had problem with back suspension being harsh on offroad. Sent shock to shop, they did service on shock and said all was ok. On same time i changed bearings on link, some of them were stuck and now when all together, back feels fine.

    Still have one problem though, too much power on mid/low range. Not sure what happened.

    A short clip from my friends phone just to add some to my post =)

    https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=...4406!3407&parId=618A3C36D2434406!1107&o=OneUp
  10. Traveller128

    Traveller128 Been here awhile

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    Lot of research in that big post Roger. Pretty much what I'm thinking at this point is, might just switch to premix. I like the idea of injection if it's working and regulating properly. I'm finding that it's not bulletproof, and since it's trying to keep the motor alive, makes me nervous to think about leaving to run as installed.

    Wonder what KTM is doing for oiling in the new fuel injected bikes....
    wwguy likes this.
  11. Bitingdog

    Bitingdog That's not my dog

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    Well it is a 300cc two-stroke, and as such makes a metric buttload of torque in the low to mid rpm range. It's kinda the 300's killer app.

    Nevertheless, your bike must work for YOU, and further to that end Beta makes it easy to adjust your bike's power in two ways: with the power valve dolly screw (no pesky springs to change like on that Pumpkin brand) and with the mapping switch on the handlebars.

    Note also that jetting it slightly fat on the pilot jet and needle will take some of the snappishness away. Take your time and dial it in to suit your preferences, skillset, and terrain. This goes for your suspension too
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  12. swamp

    swamp Woods Junkie

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    :*sip* stupid hurricane. I'll be clearing debris off my trails for a week .
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  13. wwguy

    wwguy Been here awhile

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    Thanks Robert. That's high praise indeed considering your experience with bikes and your profession as an auto mechanic/technician.

    The new KTM two stroke TPI solution is also a Dellorto solution.
  14. Traveller128

    Traveller128 Been here awhile

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    You've dug into it a lot more than I have, so praise where it's due. The more I understand about the system, the more I realize they are violating the KISS principle. Dirt bikes, offroad equipment, construction equipment and farm equipment usually suffer badly if they are made too complex. At least a car you can tow in and leave at the dealer while you get a loaner or rental for your regular life needs. Can't do that if something fails in a remote area. Recovery can become problematic when you're on the backside of beyond.

    Volvo is on the cutting edge of the high tech auto biz. The high end Euro cars all have advanced electronics that can strand you if something as simple as high temp grease on a heat sink moves a little across a couple pins on a circuit board. We can't even fix it, we can just verify it and replace the module. And the module needs to be programmed to the car, since it's on a network and has to be configured for the vehicle. It's kind of like modern day jet fighters without redundant systems. I'm really not a fan of complexity in transportation.

    Oil injection is something that I think needs to be more robust. It's such an important system on any engine, that it needs to be configured to be as reliable as possible. Electronic controlled and metered pumps need to be super reliable and the electronics that control them need to be bulletproof. The connectors all need to be weatherproof and not susceptible to fretting and vibration induced failure.

    I was really wanting something with 50% less smoke and the ability to just put gas in it. It's road legal and I was hoping to be able to dual sport without carrying oil on occasion.

    I love this bike, and really love the nature of the powerplant. If I have to premix it to take it way off into the middle of nowhere, so be it. I'm keeping it. It's too much fun to ride, even though I haven't ridden it a bunch due to the back injury, but I look forward to riding it when I can. It puts a smile on my face just practicing low speed stuff, or blasting around the perimeter of the property.
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  15. swamp

    swamp Woods Junkie

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    Monday
    KIMG1447.jpg
  16. retroone

    retroone Long timer

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  17. CSpringsRider

    CSpringsRider Been here awhile

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    Got back last night from an awesome three days at the inaugural Beta Riders of the Rockies meet up. Gene Carbonell from First Class Adventures put it together; we camped in the Pike National Forest and spent three days riding trails in the north Rampart area of the South Platte Ranger District. The event was planned for four days but we all bailed last night due to the weather forecast. Typical Colorado weather; high 70s yesterday and 3 inches of snow and 28 degrees today. On Saturday, we had 24 riders show up so had multiple groups enjoying the trail system. We probably had 10-12 folks riding together yesterday.

    After 80 miles of single track over the three days on the bike, I am definitely starting to bond with the 300RR. She's definitely a keeper...
  18. ToriMish

    ToriMish Been here awhile

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    Well . . . I'm not sure what came over me but two days ago I had a chat to Owen (from Clake) and have a Clake Pro Lever on the way.

    Should be interesting!
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  19. Dao1

    Dao1 Been here awhile

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    you getting a deep discount? You should, B/C that sucker's price point is sky high!
    But I will say this, tho, I had a buddy on a '17 300 rr w/ one of them who
    talk me into trying his bike.
    [​IMG]

    The first time I pulled in that lever and slipped it out, I was hooked.
    the thing sells itself!
  20. swamp

    swamp Woods Junkie

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