Bigger Battery

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by Terlingua, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Terlingua

    Terlingua Terlingua

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    Last year I replaced my stock 14amp battery with shorai 18amp it did a better job starting my bike in HOT weather. But for the last few months I have been working to much to ride. I started it last month and I've had it on the charger over night. Yesterday I try to stater it but it was dead. I call Shorai their are trading me out at 50% off. I ask if there was any thing with more amp's that would fit? Yep, LFX21AG-BS12,,CCA315. So it on the way. I'll like you know how it dose.
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  2. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    sorry ... but you went to a smaller battery. Shorai LFX18 actual AH is less than 1/2 of KTM 990's factory spec 11AH AGM. KTM 950 oem spec'd a 14AH AGM .. LFX18 is about 1/3 of actual amp hour originally spec for KTM 950. Shorai LFX21 measured about 6AH actual at 1amp drain rate.

    assuming you've got a 950Adv, Shorai LFX18 is way too small for a 1,000cc class bike. if your 950 is doing adventure duties like a LOT of KTM folks. you need the largest LiFePO4 you can stuff into space available. or stick with stock 14AH AGM. for trips close to home in moderate temperatures LFX21 might do the job?

    visit this orange crush thread where I've just finished doing tech support for a 990Adv in Finland on a RTW. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=914232

    pretty much all the issues will be covered in detail above link ..

    Shorai LFX36 next to EarthX ETX36 ... assuming you've got enough space, both will do a good job in your KTM950 for adventure duties. EarthX has the advantage of internal BMS, overcharge and under discharge MOSFET protections.
    [​IMG]
    #2
  3. Terlingua

    Terlingua Terlingua

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    Well hell I thought I'd found some thing to share.
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  4. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    you have .. most KTM folks are not aware of this LifePO4 info...
    yet KTM folks are the most like to splurge $$$ to save 10+ lbs on a LiFePO4 battery.

    fess up ... most KTM folks are weight wienies :D
    #4
  5. Terlingua

    Terlingua Terlingua

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    Now you have me thanking, yes it has a smaller case. But the CCA and the Ah is by their spec higher. The bike started fine when hot with the 18ah I was just look for more if posable. Now you tell me that 14ah battery with 220CCA is about the same as 21Ah battery with 315CCA. Enlighten me.
    #5
  6. Terlingua

    Terlingua Terlingua

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    Really? Are you really from Oklahoma? Because I've never heard any one form there that use them kind of words. Are you just a BMW snob trying to show off?
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  7. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    yup really from Oklahoma, yep I ride an old airhead everywhere ... LiFePO4 batteries are typically rated with PB/EQ or lead acid equivalent. actual amp hour capacity is what you really want to know. checking out my LiFePO4 testing thread for mucho more info...

    just kidding about weight wienies ... anyone riding a beast like 950 can't be tooo concerned about weight :D

    my R80G/S is a pig at 368 dry, 450lb with 9gals fuel. been checking out KTM to get down below 300lbs wet for TAT. but probably will do it with my old airhead.
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  8. EastSideSM

    EastSideSM Isn't that dangerous?

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    I went through 2 shorais. They are fine in warm weather, but I think I cooked on a long ride last year during high temps on the slab. And in the cold, they suck. I had the first one replaced due to a "bad cell" but then they only offered me a 50% refund on the second one (and the said my charging system was probably to blame which I know is not the case.) I ended up keeping it and use it in my RC51 for now but I won't rely on it for an extended trip or harsh weather (either really hot or really cold.) I went back to the stock Yuasa for the KTM.
    #8
  9. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    what model Shorai and what model KTM?
    at what cold temp did problems begin?
    what's the voltage measured at battery when engine is rev'd to 4,000rpm?

    Shorai makes a good LiFePo4 but only if you install one with large enough actual amp hour capacity. using a too small LiFePO4 is one of the most common reasons for failure.

    KTM 990 used for adventure duties needs a LiFePO4 battery with actual amp hour equal to original KTM 11AH AGM. this is where problems starts .. LiFePO4 mfg don't provide actual AH spec's so it's very hard to determine which battery to go without some help.

    for adventure duties correct size Shorai LiFePO4 battery for KTM990 is LFX36, but unfortunately case will not fit in 990. EarthX ETX36 will fit in 990Adv, has internal BMS, overcharge and under discharge protections using MOSFETs.

    if your KTM 990 is doing adventure duties in the middle of no-where in cold weather... go with stock 11AH AGM or the largest LiFePO4 you can stuff into space available.
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  10. EastSideSM

    EastSideSM Isn't that dangerous?

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    I have a 950 and had the 18. I believe it was 14.1 volts, with high beams and fans kicking on under load it measured 13.7 -13.8, which was dead in the range specified by Shorai while under load. First Shorai battery was a LFX18A1-BS12,which was replaced by same.

    Trouble in cold weather was basically anything under about 45 degrees and got a lot worse the colder it got. When it was in the 30's I would have to do the whole vodoo start method in cold weather. Turn the bike on, let some current run, attempt to start. Turn bike off turn back on repeat until it would fire up. I wanted to like the battery. But for me the trouble was not worth the weight savings/longer supposed life and I did not feel it was going to perform well in my particular climate. I had my original stock yuasa go for 4 years without ever being on a tender.

    I know some people have had better luck with them, just sharing my experience.
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  11. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    KTM 950 stock 14AH AGM ... Shorai LFX18 is about 1/3 actual amp hour capacity of original 14AH AGM.

    Li-ion batteries has an extremely low internal resistance so delivery of power is different from lead acid. but amp hour reserve capacity is measured the same.

    Li-ion will deliver max current until battery is almost dead. then power will take a dramatic drop. under warm conditions. KTM 950 provided there are no issues will normally start with a few seconds of cranking. LFX18 will deliver starting under ideal conditions. but what happens if/when conditions are not so ideal... like when temps drop to say 25f?

    LiFePO4 batteries performance dramatically changes when temps drop. this is where having reserve amp hour capacity comes in. there's also cold start procedures that uses up current to warm up LiFePo4 battery. that requires reserve AH capacity which is very small with LFX18.

    if your KTM 950 had been fitted with a LiFePO4 battery close to your original 14AH AGM with a Shorai LFX36 or EarthX ETX36 .. you'd be extremely happy instead of an unhappy camper.

    Shorai LFX36 next to EarthX ETX36, which has advantage of internal BMS, overcharge and under discharge protections.
    [​IMG]
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  12. EastSideSM

    EastSideSM Isn't that dangerous?

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    CY. Thanks for the addition info. I admit i didnt know that detail. I had done some basic research when i got the shorai and figured i would give it a try. It didnt work out for me. Maybe next time ill try the route you suggest. For now the stocker is what i will run. I probably have another couple of years with it. My first lasted almost 4 years.
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  13. Terlingua

    Terlingua Terlingua

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    The lady at shorai told me the Lfx21a6 would fit. Well it may fit some thing but it ant a Ktm 950. So back it go. Has any one try the Antigravity Ag1201 yet? it small enough to fit and has 360 CCA.
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  14. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    here's Shorai LFX21 next to EarthX ETX24 which has been confirmed to fit 990Adv. someone just came back from Artic circle summer trip 990Adv with EarthX ETX24. for winter duties ETX36 would be correct and fits 990. Shorai LFX36 would also do an excellent job for winter. but case size is too big for 990.

    EarthX has advantage of internal BMS for cell balancing, high/low voltage protections with MOSFETs.

    [​IMG]
    #14
  15. pfdskipper

    pfdskipper Westside Trash

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    339 bucks for the EarthX36,,,,,:eek1
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  16. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    don't do it .. put a Deka 14AH AGM for about $70 and be done. Deka and Odyssey both have excellent reputations.
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  17. renogeorge

    renogeorge Let's ride!!

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    I am trying to remember how many posts I have read where a guy got 5 years, 7 years, whatever out of an OEM Yuasa AGM battery and is looking for something different to replace it. I fell for it and have tried 2 different brands of the Lithium Super dupers. 3 replacements and questionable cold weather starting. Gotta buy the special charger, keep everything just right (don't ever have a drain or leave something on and drain the battery).

    I am sure that they will get these new batteries figured out someday. I just don't plan to prototype for them at these prices out in the boonies on my 450 pound Adventure with no kick starter. Sorry, not very adventurous.....
    #17
  18. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    bummer .. sounds like you got nailed by installing twice .. too small LiFePO4 batteries, which seems to be the most common reason for LiFePO4 failure.

    almost all LIFePO4 listings for 990Adv will not be correct size. KTM engineers spec the smallest AGM battery they could get away with. 11AH AGM for a high compression 1,000 cc motorcycle is marginal.

    BMW did the same thing with HP2 .. they spec a 11AH AGM for a 1,200cc motor or marginal at best.

    so LiFePO4 mfg gets to believing their own promo and think that somehow their 18AH lead acid equivalent which is about 5AH actual can actually replace a 11AH AGM (which should have been a 14AH)

    so during moderate weather bike starts just fine .. all is good until cold weather hits. then all of a sudden that way too small LiFePO4 falls flat on it's face. naturally the battery gets blamed .. when the actual fault is installing too small LiFePO4 battery.
    #18