BMW 450 enduro (merged) threadfest...

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Max Kool, Mar 4, 2007.

  1. ganshert

    ganshert not sleeping

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    at least it's different than the other mass produced 450s out there

    FI, linkless rear suspension, output shaft inline with the swingarm pivot, etc...

    I wonder how many of those trick bits will make it to production and if it will be under $10K
    #81
  2. VascoMerlin

    VascoMerlin He'll Stab Your Cat

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    Great, another $8,000 dirt-bike! :clap

    That is exactly what we need.....





    :puke2
    #82
  3. alfaris

    alfaris MOTERO TORERO

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    Do not forget BMW won two dakars on a thumper prototype with Ricahrd Sainct..........

    BMW has technology and I+D enough to assault the enduro market.......:evil
    #83
  4. Some Dude

    Some Dude what attitude problem???

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    I am willing to bet that changing out the counter sprocket will be quite easy as most of my bikes I have to take the rear wheel loose anyway to get enough slack off the chain to remove the CS. So if you remove the rear wheel and then remove the swingarm pivot shaft, the swing arm will drop down and then there will be enough clearance to slip the CS off, install the new one and re-install swingarm and wheel and off you go. The design should really help with chain, sprocket and overall drivetrain life right down to the swing arm and wheel bearings as there will not be a shocking load due to cycling of the suspension. I like. Hopefully they have or get all the bugs worked out of the unique clutch design.
    #84
  5. R3B

    R3B Lazy Motorcyclist

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    Modern manufacturing will beat that problem, only ting will be the flywheel mass it gives extra, but then again that gives you more torque, which is nice in the mud ;-)
    #85
  6. jehu

    jehu ∩HƏſ

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    It appears the counter shaft and swingarm share the same center. Constant tension chain is the result but it looks to be a pain to replace the countershaft sprocket. On the plus side is that it should see longer life. I wonder how the swingarm is supported.
    #86
  7. Lurch42

    Lurch42 Been here awhile

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    What? Nobody noticed that Micky Dymond left KTM and signed with BMW for AMA Supermoto and Pikes Peak this year?

    Can you say Supermoto 450, too?:D
    #87
  8. bxr140

    bxr140 Flame Bait

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    Wait...
    The bike has a doohickey? :confused
    #88
  9. Bored

    Bored But happy to be alive

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    I called my BMW salesman today to find out about his experience in Cali riding the new X bikes with Jimmy Lewis; and I brought up this 450 prototype. The opinion concensus in Cali was that the 450 would be street legal, ala Husky TE's, and KTM EXC's, but probably would not be available to the public till 09. Too bad. This is closer to being my ideal bike than the X Challenge is. These are interesting times to be in the market for a street legal off road bike. I would not be surprised to see the Japanese bike companys come up with something next year. How can they continue to ignore the likes of: Husky, KTM, BMW, Sherco, Gas Gas, Aprilla, and Beta?
    #89
  10. dorkpunch

    dorkpunch Oops...

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    i dont know, i may be wrong in my thinking here, but i think that setup would have LESS flywheel efect than a standard set up. the clutch in a normal bike is efectively a flywheel. its not bolted directly on the crank, but it has momentum that will try and keep the crank turning just like a flywheel. big clutch= more flywheel=more torquey feel, little clutch, no flywheel, = snappy mx feel. anyone else, thoughts?
    #90
  11. dlearl476

    dlearl476 Two-bit Throttle Bum

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    What's yer point? AFAIK, until the 450/550 Aprilia hasn't built an engine in 20 or so years. Always the Rotax or Suzuki(?)

    Here's some of my WAGs, to add to the rumor mill. That this thing bears even a slight cosmetic resemblance to anything BMW may choose to produce someday is a miracle. Same as the F650RR's built by Richard Schalber and raced in Dakar, same as the R900RRs raced a few years later. This is a prototype, and it has "Northern Italy" stamped all over it. Check out the frame. Check out ours (perhaps made in the same factory):

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Although a different concept, the same fit, finish, and fasteners. Same as the engine on the 450, current with Aprilia concepts.

    Definitely a prototype or test mule. They don't have to worry about how hard it is to change a sprocket. They have twenty mechanics that can probably do it in ten minutes, even if the entire engine has to come out of the frame.

    But take a look at the RACING Super-Motards. Much less Delta, much more thin-wall cro-moly tubing.
    Like one cylinder?

    I'm with you. I think this will be the first product made in that factory, and the G-line assembly will move there as well.

    Who'll buy a $7K BMW dirt bike? Ask an HP-2 owner. They could buy two and have change. I would as well.

    In related news, I got to sit on an F800S today and pour over a XChallenge. I must admit, in person the fit and finish of the X is much better than the KLR quality apparent in the pics. Looks rather well put together.
    #91
  12. GB

    GB . Administrator

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    Sure thing.. just like they got their butts kicked on their F650 bikes... they are one of the most expensive 650's, if not the most expensive, and they don't seem to have a shortage of buyers.
    #92
  13. Max Kool

    Max Kool Xtankteam™

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    I was referring to the phrase "rebadged Aprilia" where we all know that in the early 90's Aprilia was desperate to have a volume selling model. Imagine their faces when BMW suggested to develop a single cylinder together and produce them in Aprilia's plant (because BMW's Berlin plant was fully booked making oilheads of course). BMW knew exactly what they wanted and were in charge, they weren't simply buying Aprilias, made small modifications and then sold them under the BMW flag.

    I believe without BMW and Rotax, the Aprilia's 650cc thumpers would never have existed. Or even Aprilia at all (for I believe the Pegaso produced the money for Aprilia to pay Rotax to develop the 1000cc V-twin for them).
    #93
  14. BuckRider

    BuckRider Long timer

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    Not arguing with anyone, just want to clarify what I think you all are trying to say:

    The fact that a flywheel has mass isn't what gives it torque. Torque is derived from the ability to rotate an object; so the further you move the applied force from its pivot point, the more energy (HP) is converted to torque.

    Put another way, torque is the resulting rotational force when energy is applied at a distance from an objects rotational point. The further you move away from the rotational center, the more torque you create.

    The flywheel effect is stored energy. What it delivers for torque is still dependent on where it is applying its force relative to its rotational point.

    Essentially the simple answer is the bigger the crank diameter (where it engages the clutch), the greater the amount of energy (HP) is converted to torque.

    The "Flywheel" effect is just mass in motion or stored energy. When a large mass is "connected" to the drive system, it takes torque to turn it and get it spinning, and once spinning, it wants to stay in motion until acted upon. So the flywheel effect is really storing whatever torque is delivered to it, and "smoothing" out the delivery of the torque.

    Engines with lots of torque typically have big crank diameters (longer stroke). Engines with big flywheels, are smoother. Not all engines have both. Both of these characteristics add weight and cost more.

    Heres an example taken from a university website:

    "Imagine pushing a door to open it. The force of your push (F) causes the door to rotate about its hinges (the pivot point, O). How hard you need to push depends on the distance you are from the hinges (r) (and several other things, but let's ignore them now). The closer you are to the hinges (i.e. the smaller r is), the harder it is to push. This is what happens when you try to push open a door on the wrong side. The torque you created on the door is smaller than it would have been had you pushed the correct side (away from its hinges)."

    Hope this helps......
    #94
  15. arrcrussell

    arrcrussell Gimme Dirt

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    I can change the CS on my bike in approx 10 minutes. I'd like to see you remove the rear wheel, swing arm pivot shaft, drop the swing arm, change the CS and re-install everyrhing in under an hour! Not familiar with the rear suspension of this bike but removal of a swing arm usually entails removing the rear shock too! Good luck!
    #95
  16. dlearl476

    dlearl476 Two-bit Throttle Bum

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    Well, since neither you or I were involved in the negotiations, we can't say for certain, but IMHO the fact that Aprilia was putting Rotax engines in Dual-Sport motocycles from 1986 (ETX600 & Tuareg) I believe BMW was much more of a "customer" than a "developer." Of course Aprilia jumped at the chance. It's a well known fact that quality motorcycle production is well below capacity in Northern Italy. The brains and the braun are there so it made perfect sense for BMW to hook up with Aprilia. I believe it was more of a parallel development that a re-badging, but Aprilia was already in planning stages of the replacement for the Tuareg.

    And they've done it again.
    #96
  17. dlearl476

    dlearl476 Two-bit Throttle Bum

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    Kind of a moot point. This is a factory race bike. No one outside the team is ever going to need to work on it, and I can assure you they can change the CS sprocket in 10 minutes, if they have to disassemble the whole bike to do it.
    #97
  18. eakins

    eakins Butler Maps

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    read in one of the cycle mags about the rumor of bmw looking to buy husqvarna??? to be able to compete with ktm.
    #98
  19. doyle

    doyle RallyRaidReview-ing

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    I think that rumor has morphed into BMW buying one of Husqvarna's production lines not the make itself.
    #99
  20. Hair

    Hair Outside the boxer

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    Rotax builds engines for Aprilia too.
    From what I understand Aprilia only design and assembles bikes. All the manufacturing is outsourced.