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Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by outlaws justice, Jul 3, 2012.
I'm with you.
Same here... Nick I's book Sport Riding Techniques got me into trailbraking. It took me a while to figure out what the point of it was, but once I got it, I got it (for the reasons you explained above). (By "got it", I mean that I understand the point of it... by no means have I mastered it!)
A good post by Nick I. There is definately a huge gap between joe-shmo-advice and actual technique. Although I do see the value in telling newbies to get their braking over with before initiating a turn. Ninety-five percent of them are just going to be casual riders anyway, with no goal of performance-oriented riding.
From Casey Stoner about loosing the front at this weekends motogp race:
"I'm pretty disappointed, I had planned to go for my 'win or bin' effort in the last corner, not that one! I was happy on the bike and felt we had a few tenths a lap over Dani and confident I could pull him back in. On the final lap I made a mistake going into the first turn and I had to push a little more than I wanted through some of the sections but I got on to Dani exactly where I wanted and planned to make my overtake in the last corner, if I didn't have an opportunity earlier in the lap. I felt confident but as soon as I tried to turn in a little more, the front went. I was already off the brakes and not in the hard braking area, as soon as I eased of the brakes I guess the weight came off the front and down I went. I'm frustrated I wasn't allowed to get up and try and score some points, the bike was perfect, but the marshals pushed me away. It's our first crash in a race, down to our own mistake, for the first time in a long time so I'm disappointed for sure, but we knew we had the pace. If we can continue this momentum for the rest of the season then we shouldn't be so worried for the Championship."
More accurately: Radius = MPH / Lean_Angle
I don't know what MSF teaches and don't care enough to dig out the answer- but we teach this in Oregon. Can you brake in a corner? Sure- but you have to be that much more careful, because it's much less likely you'll be able to fix a mistake.
Well, someone should, anyway. He's not talking about trail braking. (See what he thinks of trail braking on the street further down.) He's talking about braking after you're already in a corner:
And then, if something sneaks up on you, you can brake. (See above) He hammers on the point that you have to do it smoothly. The reason MSF and Oregon hate that is that n00bs- and by that I mean 99% of the riders I see- are barely smooth with planned events.
Which is consistent with his best-known article- The Pace, which he re-affirmed in 2009. Let me help:
But since we're taking Nick's word as law, here's one for David (who decided to quote Nick) and the rest of the Lee Parks fans:
It it helps in the middle of the turn, it stands to reason it would help at the beginning too.
I guess we can agree to disagree then.
A cheap bike will not compensate for my lack of talent & minuscule testicular fortitude. Letting a 220kg bike swing around for a fraction of a second is more than enough in one lifetime.
I agree with the statements in the thread about maximising your safety to the limit of your ability. Precisely why I was so happy to get some advanced training & learn new skills. I have a better understanding of the dynamics & a better ability to use them. Continuous practice is making my braking better, straight lines & corners, wet & dry.
I've only run off the road once and come close twice. All 3 events were on gravel roads. After reading the original post, I now realize I grabbed the brakes in the corner and the bike stood up and very little speed was scrubbed because there was almost no grip. Thanks for posting, I am going to practice the corner/brake drills you mention.
Late braking and Trail are not the same thing.
Late braking will involve trail braking, but trail braking does not have to involve late braking.
Late braking is used basically to sacrifice a good corner entry to get in order to pass someone, because it's slower the only way the pass sticks is if you take the line away from the person you overtook, otherwise you'll just get passed right back.
And like he said, that tactic is reserved for racing generally considered poor form even at track days.
Trail braking on the other hand is simply continuing to slow down after your turn in point on the way to the apex. If done perfectly you'll normally have the brakes "trailing off" all the way to the apex and then you'll be picking the throttle up a little bit at the very final bit of trailing off so you've got some control overlap.
Another tactic that Nick I talks about that is very effective and is related to trail braking is, is rear brake against throttle to smooth everything out and very precisely balance the bike. Need to go a little slower and tighter add just a touch more rear brake, need to go a little faster take a bit of rear brake away, one of the beautiful things about that is that it removes any jerk from taking up slack chain.
Downside is it's allot harder to do in a right hand corner at speed, which is why allot of racers stick on thumb brakes on the left grip for the rear brake.
No one said we were taking his word as law, it was posted for education and discussion and because it can help some (maybe you already know everything there is to know?
Also the following quote from the pace
Originally Posted by Nick Ienatsch, "The Pace"
The street is not a racing environment, and it takes humility, self assurance and self control to keep it that way. The leader sets the pace and monitors his mirrors for signs of raggedness in the ranks that follow, such as tucking in on straights, crossing over the yellow line and hanging off the motorcycle in the corners.
Hanging off is a technique to help you corner, I do not advocate doing it to a level of draging knee on the street, but moving your center line inside the bikes center line is beneficial and is still "hanging off"
So you are of the opinion that your way is the only way and everyone but you is wrong and you are the best rider in the world and have nothing to learn from anyone else because you are so smart.
"It has been shown over and over in various studies of the human condition that when the bar is set high, people tend to
find ways to make it over the bar even if not consciously thinking about it. When the bar is set low, the end result grows
Additionally, you still have the same percentage of people "failing" and the same number of people
complaining about how hard the standard is."
Question for you, when you are teaching riders, are you telling them to be smooth? Or are you teaching them the things they need to do to be smooth? Telling someone to be smooth solves nothing. You have to break down the things to help them learn to be smooth.
Teach them to be smooth, dont tell them to be smooth.
My biggest problem is changing from a dirtbike mindset (40 years) to a road mindset. On the KTM, you come into a corner and lock the rear and slide to turn. Most offroad braking is last second and as hard as you can without falling. The other thing is upper body, I tend to try to keep my torso vertical and my head also. Good road technique is not so.
Since acquiring the DR 650, I have started to ride pavement more and want to be better at it. Thanks for this thread and it's helpful insights.
I found THIS PAGE that seems to discuss traction.
Others can decide if it "more or less" accurate
That's very simplified but somewhat accurate.
IMHO it doesn't matter what the "change" should be/could be. It matters what it IS. The only way to get a feel for what it actually is, is to ride until you find the limits of traction. Which unlike what many people think isn't nearly as bad as it sounds as long as you approach it gradually.
or like I said above, lock the rear in a straight line on a bunch of different roads and start getting a feel for that traction.
I could be throwing myself to the wolves with this but.....
I have changed my view a little on testing for grip. I used to dab a foot if I was concerned or dab the back brake. The first method is expensive on soles, the second is hit & miss to what you learn. Now, I weigh up what I can see & temper my speed & road position accordingly. If it is slippy I want to be in the best position to deal with it rather than guessing what is going to happen next. On wet clay & gravel, even wet tarmac I'm finding that spinning up the rear briefly in a straight line tells me more about grip than brakes, I think it is a more consistent test of traction because I can find the slip point.
Just my thoughts, don't be to harsh!
I actually do that too as well as just turn harder and faster until the bike starts to push... The rear brake works well though too the trick is to apply it gently until you feel the lock up. To abrupt and you're right you don't really learn much.
The acceleration is probally easier to get the feel for as long as your uncomfortable spinning the rear which is honestly great fun.
And off road, you can leave a corner with out wheel spin? I guess my ktm's and right hand didn't get that memo, might make the tire budget a bit cheaper...
Yup, I stand up, weight as far forward as I can & lift the revs. It is instantly apparent how much grip you have & the bike stays stable & straight. No brown trouser issues.
Pushing the front when I'm dubious about grip is well beyond my ability.
Just approach it slowly. You don't really know what the limits of traction are until you're over the limit. Being a little over is fun being allot over well...it can be fun.
Good stuff. I would help you but can't seem to be able to compose anything better.
ALL: Trail braking is an advanced skill bordering on art. My street noobs at Grattan Raceway get told not to trail brake and concentrate their efforts on more important stuff like threshhold braking and picking a good turn-in point and then getting the bike down to full lean in one quick motion. Stuff like that. Trail braking requires smoothness which requires time. It requires a light, to the point of delicacy, touch on the bars and controls. I wouldn't bother talking trail braking to a rider who as yet cannot take one hand, if not both hands, off the bars while cornering at full lean.
In the book "How To Toilet Train Your Child In 24 Hours" there is a 3 step test to see if the kid is even ready for the effort. I wish that Nick and some of the other top know-it-alls would come up with some tests to see if riders are ready for the so-called advanced stuff?
Recently, Cycle World, Aug. 2012. p. 49 shows a rider's blistered hands from a long day at the track. To my way of thinking, if a rider blisters his hands, something(s) is severely amiss? Blisters are are not a sign of delicate touch on the bars.
The "Upper Half Of The Motorcycle" discusses how much braking is still available when the bike is at full lean.