Braking in a Turn

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by ParaMud, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    634
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    I posted the rear brake in an emergency thread and was remembering back to my MSF days.
    In MSF we did a exercise where, in the middle of a turn, you have to stand the bike up to brake.

    Well that is almost never an option in real life. If you stand the bike up in a turn, you will either go slamming into the side wall of a canyon, or into oncoming traffic.

    Why is the class teaching this?

    Saying the tire can only do one thing at a time, turning or braking. That is completely false. Most of the time the tire is not even close to it's braking loose point. As long as you apply the brakes smoothly, even at the apex of a turn to brake for an oncoming car rock in the road.

    I think by teaching this, they are teaching us bad habits.
    There are tons of people doing this on youtube videos.

    Your opinion?
    #1
  2. Tosh Togo

    Tosh Togo Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,594

    MSF courses are designed for green riders, and the technique they choose to teach is the best/safest for that group.

    Trail-braking is a skill to be learned later, if they survive long enough.

    PS- most bikes will stand up to some degree when you get on the front brake, so perhaps the MSF is just cutting out a step?. :D








    And .....on a scale of one to ten, your rant is about a 2.5 :lol3
    #2
  3. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    634
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    Haha I appreciate the rating.
    I disagree that trail-braking is a skill that should be learned later. The skill is in use almost everytime they ride, they just don't realize it.
    #3
  4. theWolfTamer

    theWolfTamer Lupie on a Mission

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Oddometer:
    399
    Location:
    Firmly planted in the Georgia red clay
    During the beginner course there's a lot of information to absorb. Most of it you don't. Serious riders keep learning and practicing.

    From another forum:

    #4
  5. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    634
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    Great quote, I agree there is a lot to learn, and it would be better served for the course to remove that from the class.

    I have never taken ERC, what do they teach in that course?
    #5
  6. norther

    norther Mind=Yes Body=No

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Oddometer:
    192
    Location:
    Calgary or Nakusp
    How about sticking to the mantra: "Slow In - Fast Out".

    This accomplishes several things:
    It allows for braking in a straight line before the curve. (Set a safe fun speed before committing to the curve)
    It allows for throttle in the curve. (Stabilizes the bike)
    It allows for increased reaction time to things unseen in the curve. (In situations where sight lines may be compromised)

    Trail braking is great and all but I prefer to leave it for the track where I know the condition of the corner and oncoming traffic doesn't exist.

    It works well for me. Plus I try to set a straight line speed that allows me to accelerate thru the curve. Once the curve or set of curves are complete I will roll off the throttle to the straight line speed of choice again. I've learned through mishap and mayhem that the road does not serve well as a race track.

    I've also learned that if there is a suggested speed sign for a corner (at least in BC and it worked for me in California) doubling that speed generally left tons of lean angle to make the corner safely (all other hazards not present) and therefore tons of grip to use the brakes if needed.
    #6
  7. EggChaser

    EggChaser Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Oddometer:
    536
    Location:
    Hamsphire/Surrey Borders
    Of course if you get on a Beemer with any of the forms of telelever suspension on the front end then there is much less dive during braking, which in turn gives a different feel when braking leant over. Which could mean if you regularly ride that type of system, take more care when you next get on a bike with standard front suspension.
    #7
  8. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    19,747
    Location:
    OR
    :thumb
    #8
  9. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Oddometer:
    5,963
    Location:
    Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
    You can only brake in a turn if you're going faster than 205 mph.
    #9
  10. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    634
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    lol:freaky
    #10
  11. Crisis management

    Crisis management Latte riders FTW!

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,524
    Location:
    New Zealand
    You're not taking this seriously are you?


    I'm looking forward to the braking while stopped at an intersection debate. I'm sure there is lots to discuss highlighting the merits or weakness' of using both brakes, front or rear only, will ABS prevent roll back and the use of rear facing radar to detect the sneaky rear ending soccer mom.








    I really can't wait. :huh
    #11
  12. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Oddometer:
    5,963
    Location:
    Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
    Why should I? No opinions will be changed as to preferred techniques, just like the last time this came up, that just died down last month.

    I've got a brand new bike to farkle. I'll pick up the Cliff's Notes in mid-January.
    #12
  13. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    19,747
    Location:
    OR



    edited :lol3
    #13
  14. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Oddometer:
    5,963
    Location:
    Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
    Oh I already did that.

    I've got a couple more bolt-ons, then some electrical accessories to plan.
    #14
  15. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,152
    Location:
    Watertown NY
    Actually it is also posted here, as I posted it

    http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805304
    #15
  16. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Oddometer:
    7,418
    Location:
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    Wrong. This is a VERY good skill to have. If you can't stop leaned over within a needed distance, the ONLY way to do so is stand the bike up, get hard on the binders and 1) stop if needed or 2) lean it back over and continue through the turn.

    I've done this on the track when I made a ham fisted maneuver, WAAAAY over cooked a turn (think hitting neutral by mistake or some such thing). I am now going waaaaaay faster than I needed to be to negotiate the turn. Stand the bike up, brake very hard, lean it back down and continue. No problem.

    Same applies on the street for numerous reasons. If you can't or won't do this, you shouldn't be riding on the street. I consider this basic motorcycle skills, to properly control the bike and be a safe rider, in control at all times.

    Barry
    #16
  17. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    634
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    I am not talking about the track, talking more like a 2 line road. You have the width of a car and no option to stand the bike up or else you go in the dirt or on coming traffic. If you were taught to stand the bike straight up to break..... then well, your screwed.

    The track is much wider and has more run off. Plus you are closer to the limit on the track on traction due to the nature of it.
    #17
  18. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Oddometer:
    7,418
    Location:
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    That was an example picked at random. Sorry.... I stand by my assertion that WITHIN A NORMAL TRAFFIC LANE, the average rider needs to be able to stand any bike up for maximum braking to 1) STOP or 2) continue safely through the turn.

    PERIOD. End of story.

    Barry
    #18
  19. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    634
    Location:
    Orange, CA

    You think the average rider is at the limit of their traction during the turn and can't brake and turn?

    Standing up shouldnt even be considered the option since that almost guarantees a crash.

    Braking won't automatically throw you on the ground.
    #19
  20. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Oddometer:
    7,418
    Location:
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    No. But you may find yourself there if you cook a turn. It HAS happened...

    No, it does not. It allows for MAXIMUM braking, if that is what is needed.

    I agree with this statement.


    Barry
    #20